Sheltering

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
As Todjaeger suggested, I've created a new thread off from the go bag thread focusing on sheltering. Both temporary and permanent type.

Including such things as:

  • Bunkers
    Safe rooms
    Disaster shelters
    Storm Shelters
    Fire shelters
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As Todjaeger suggested, I've created a new thread off from the go bag thread focusing on sheltering. Both temporary and permanent type.

Including such things as:

  • Bunkers
    Safe rooms
    Disaster shelters
    Storm Shelters
    Fire shelters
how about reinforced, escape and sound proofed, time out rooms for four year olds?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I know of a couple of blokes who have sunk 20 and 40m shipping containers into their acreage to deal with "societal dislocation" issues :)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
how about reinforced, escape and sound proofed, time out rooms for four year olds?
You might be surprised, unpleasantly so, to discover just what a four-year old can escape from. I know my parents were...

Seriously though, a buried shipping container for shelter is a disaster waiting to happen. Unless there is significant reinforcement of the walls, the structure will collapse from the load.

Not a bad way though for quick, above ground shelter or storage.

One of the key things to sheltering though is to accurately assess the potential threats, both in terms of type, and scope or degree.

A major, all encompassing shelter for high winds, fires, flash floods is not so useful if built in the flood plain...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
they did add ramparts and sleepers to the outside to stop compression. I've seen a shipping container collapse from outside pressure and it wasn't pretty.

they've done a full job on these, interconnected, braced with internal webbing and no need for bilge pumps as the rainfall is basically zero. they are close to artesian water and one of these blokes has also sunk around 20000L tank in for good measure

they're ready for zombies....
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
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  • #7
they did add ramparts and sleepers to the outside to stop compression. I've seen a shipping container collapse from outside pressure and it wasn't pretty.
IMO a shipping container is not a great starting point for many types of shelter. For a fire shelter they are pretty terrible, because obviously being metal they will conduct heat and even as a lockable space, in full sun they can become unbearably hot. I have a 20ft container and it leaks, entry through the doors is cumbersome, and is unsuitable as anything other than storage space for non valuable items. You can address each of these issues, but your spending a lot to improve something that is already limited (size/flexability).

I've built a bunker out of benex blocks. These are non porus blocks that have a higher insulated value than besser blocks (ie they are inherently waterproof). They also "lock" together making it ideal for unskilled people to lay their own blocks. I've built a 2.8 x 2.8 x 2.4 fire bunker underground (completely below ground level) but open on the door side, with these and its far superior to most other forms of construction in terms of water proofing and fire resistance. I still waterproofed the outer layer, but its much easier to waterproof something that is already water proof.

I am quite surprise how few people build secure shelters. Many areas are susceptible to fire, high winds (cyclone/tornado), or lawlessness (or even slow response from law enforcement). While many think about zombie apocalypse situations, much of Australian bush is regularly burnt out every 10 years despite how much fire fighting you can muster or best management practice. Even well prepared homes are not shelters in an extreme fire event (which again, has frequency of ~20 years). Given climatic changes extreme events seem to be more likely in the future.

IMO everyone living in the bush should aim to have a shelter. It shouldn't be the only strategy you have, but its a very viable option. Anyone who has tried to flee an imminent fire on road will know, thick, acrid smoke, zero visibility, falling debris and panic do not make for an effective plan. Which given how little notice you usually will have, it typically going to be the norm.

Bushfire, threat, Melbourne, CFA, DSE, Victoria, fire, dead, toll, survivor, Kinglake, Marysville, Arthurs Creek, burn, Strathewen, Humevale, Bendigo, Wandong, St Andrews

I look at the recent disaster in Vanuatu and think that it should be that each village has a strong shelter constructed to handle storms like that.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I will see if I can locate/scan in snaps of my grandfather's house and storm shelter in the East End district, Grand Cayman Island, BOT taken in the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Ivan which struck Sept. 11th, 2004 as a Class 5 hurricane. As a side note, my grandfather's home was the first one hit. They were also the only inhabitable structures for ~3km around after the storm passed.
 

PCShogun

New Member
A bunker has not been in my planning as we live within a few miles of the coast and digging a hole more than a few feet deep ensures it becomes a pool in just a few minutes. Building something above ground that is 'bunker like' is simply advertising its purpose. Storage containers are also great targets of opportunity when disaster strikes. Conditions will vary in other regions. Hurricanes are probably our biggest threat, and its associated flooding.

Having gone through Hurricane Hugo in 1989, I can tell you that it is not pretty when the community goes without power for 14 days, and food deliveries get spotty for even a few days. I now have some plastic storage containers with shelf stable food, powdered milk, OTC medicines, playing cards, batteries, propane cooking, etc. Each weighs about 30 pounds and can be quickly loaded into a SUV if needed. I had thought about a generator but keeping 30 gallons of gas in the garage is not a safe prospect.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Having gone through Hurricane Hugo in 1989, I can tell you that it is not pretty when the community goes without power for 14 days, and food deliveries get spotty for even a few days. I now have some plastic storage containers with shelf stable food, powdered milk, OTC medicines, playing cards, batteries, propane cooking, etc. Each weighs about 30 pounds and can be quickly loaded into a SUV if needed. I had thought about a generator but keeping 30 gallons of gas in the garage is not a safe prospect.
Bunkers don't have to be completely separate. IMO houses in hurricane/cyclone areas should have a strong room implemented with its own concrete roof etc.

IMO generators are a bit of a pain. Fuel doesn't last for ever, they are heavy, they are messy, they are noisy and they only last as long as the fuel does. You could power a house off one for maybe 1 or 2 days but anything more than that and you start requiring large fuel reserves.

IMO you are better off with a 100+ ahr SLA battery and ~160w of foldable solar panels. This should be enough to run a small 12v fridge, laptop/phone chargers, power tool chargers, torches etc. At least when its sunny.

Save your fuel for vehicles, chain saws, etc.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Bunkers don't have to be completely separate. IMO houses in hurricane/cyclone areas should have a strong room implemented with its own concrete roof etc.

IMO generators are a bit of a pain. Fuel doesn't last for ever, they are heavy, they are messy, they are noisy and they only last as long as the fuel does. You could power a house off one for maybe 1 or 2 days but anything more than that and you start requiring large fuel reserves.

IMO you are better off with a 100+ ahr SLA battery and ~160w of foldable solar panels. This should be enough to run a small 12v fridge, laptop/phone chargers, power tool chargers, torches etc. At least when its sunny.

Save your fuel for vehicles, chain saws, etc.
With bunkers, location/siting of them is very much dependent on what they are providing protection from, and what other potential threats exist. A storm shelter providing protection from a hurricane (aka typhoon or tropical cyclone), or tornadoes can be better if it is a distinct, non-attached structure where possible. This is to minimize the degree of impact any structural compromise in the main building/residence has on the bunker and ingress/egress.

Regarding the generator, that is very much an individual/local situational issue. In the US, there are generally three different kinds of generators people can use. The small, portable ones are usually gasoline/petrel generators, and really cannot generate sufficient electricity to power a home, though they might be able to power specific appliances like refrigerators and freezers. There are also larger diesel or gas-fired generators, some of these are sufficient to power an office building for several days, depending on capacity. Assuming either sufficiently large LPG tanks, or piped-in NG lines not endangered by whatever disasters are likely, then a NG-fired generator can be large enough to power a house, and do so for a considerable amount of time.

As for going with solar panels, it really depends on location, and local weather patterns. Where I am, while a number of homes are starting to get solar panels, there are still many days when the sky is cloudy or overcast so that there is little or no direct sunlight, or the direct sunlight gets regularly broken by passing clouds. Something like this can be helped to a degree if a home were to have some sort of battery bank, which the panels were really just topping off when available, with the wiring done so that electrical devices of major importance could draw from the battery bank during interruptions in grid power.

On a side note, there is a way to use a charged automobile or marine battery to backfeed into portions of a home's electrical wiring, to provide power in specific rooms or to specific devices.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
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  • #12
Yes, I wasn't considering New England when talking about solar panels. I was thinking north of Sydney and more tropical locations.

I am offgrid currently so apart from needing a 45kg LPG gas cylinder swapped every 6 months and maybe 20L of unleaded every 2-3 months for the 2400w generator for cloudy periods, I don't really need more than that. I have a 1.2kw solar array and 8x6v 225A/hr batteries (both of which are pretty small by todays standards, many homes have 5-10kw worth of solar, and batteries are becoming more affordable all the time). 10 years ago it was pretty fancy.

But in an emergency situation, if you aren't terribly ambitious, 160w + 100 A/hr is enough to survive on. You won't power a whole house. But you can charge phone, laptop, battery powered hand tools (drill, reciprocal saws etc), torches and if your in a sunny area a small 12v fridge etc. Its what I plan keeping in my fire bunker (battery and solar panel). I assume in a fire my solar setup/generator would be completely destroyed. Enough to help clear debris, to allow vehicles in or survive in place for a few days until they can or re-establish coms.

I wouldn't plan to have any shelter/bunker to far away from the home. In a fire type situation, it is most likely mean sheltering for less than an hour with the door shut. Cyclones/hurricanes can take much longer to pass, and predict when they will hit. Spending considerably longer time would mean you would want a larger more capable bunker with much larger stores. Cyclones and fires would have pretty significantly different needs and wants.

For me, fires and storms, the key focus is survival. Im not trying to protect my whole house or run everything after a disaster hits. There will be no house, no cars, no neighbors, roads most likely will be cut. Its just to make survival through it possible and hopefully enough that afterwards you are alive, uninjured and are sufficiently comfortable not to take risks to seek assistance or help and ideally be able to help others near by.
 
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