This is a discussion on Venezuela is buying 9 SSKs ! within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I just read on www.meretmarine.com that the Venezuelan Navy admiral has announced the procurement of 9 SSKs (apparently with AIP ...
I just read on www.meretmarine.com that the Venezuelan Navy admiral has announced the procurement of 9 SSKs (apparently with AIP + an autonomy of 50 days is required) with selection process finalized by end 2007.
France had refused to allow DCN to sell Scorpene, but it now seems that Spain has offered S-80. Since S-80 have American combat systems integration, it is now likely that Scorpène will be proposed to Venezuela after all. Spain will lead the procurement since Zapatero doesn't care about irritating the US (while France is being more moderate), with of course a workload split with DCN which is co-owner of Scorpene programme.
Other candidates are HDW U214 and Russia's Amur.
IMO if the objective is creating problems for the US, a modern SSK is the adequate weapons system, especially if it has AIP. Any surface vessel would be more easily destroyed by the USN than SSKs loitering around the Caribbean, where SSNs would be suboptimal.
I wonder if Venezuela will still be able to fund all this with the oil price crashing down in the last few months, but here we've got a serious issue.
I just read on www.meretmarine.com that the Venezuelan Navy admiral has announced the procurement of 9 SSKs (apparently with AIP + an autonomy of 50 days is required) with selection process finalized by end 2007.
France had refused to allow DCN to sell Scorpene, but it now seems that Spain has offered S-80. Since S-80 have American combat systems integration, it is now likely that Scorpène will be proposed to Venezuela after all. Spain will lead the procurement since Zapatero doesn't care about irritating the US (while France is being more moderate), with of course a workload split with DCN which is co-owner of Scorpene programme.
Other candidates are HDW U214 and Russia's Amur.
IMO if the objective is creating problems for the US, a modern SSK is the adequate weapons system, especially if it has AIP. Any surface vessel would be more easily destroyed by the USN than SSKs loitering around the Caribbean, where SSNs would be suboptimal.
I wonder if Venezuela will still be able to fund all this with the oil price crashing down in the last few months, but here we've got a serious issue.
Any comments ?
cheers
A purchase of 9 SSKs by Venezuela will certainly change the balance of power in that part of the world. I wonder if it has the potential to trigger a naval arms race in South America?
A purchase of 9 SSKs by Venezuela will certainly change the balance of power in that part of the world. I wonder if it has the potential to trigger a naval arms race in South America?
It might also trigger a change in submarine procurement by the USN. I don't see Seawolf or Virginia class SSNs sailing in 100 metre deep seas hunting around for silent Scorpene.
On a positive side, at least those OHP FFs with no SM1 anymore have a job tailored out for them, real ASW !!
Isn't it more likely for Venezuela to buy Kilos or the new Armur? I don't think they can get any western design without serious trouble for their manufacturers from the US, regarding that SSKs are a littlebit more of a threat than cargo planes
I don't see Seawolf or Virginia class SSNs sailing in 100 metre deep seas hunting around for silent Scorpene.
why not? a couple of pertinent reality sound bites.
USS Parche regularly entered Soviet Northern Waters in virtually keel scraping mode to harvest off Soviet sea bed cables. Parches replacement is an order of magnitude better in capability.
the new combat systems and weapons systems for the Seawolf/Virginias/688I's (and by assoc Collins) are optimised for fighting conventional subs in the littorals - and green water conflicts
CBASS is designed to deal with conventional subs
the Venezuelans might have bought the toys, but they won't have sea time experience. A venezuelan sub against a USN sub crew who train for long range and persistent missions - no contest.
dissimilar training - the venezuelans don't have adversity training against any competent "orange" forces. no training = less capability.
9 subs? more like 9 targets.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Last edited by gf0012-aust; January 19th, 2007 at 09:35 AM.
Reason: sp
why not? a couple of pertinent reality sound bites.
USS Parche regularly entered Soviet Northern Waters in virtually keel scraping mode to harvest off Soviet sea bed cables. Parches replacement is an order of magnitude better in capability.
the new combat systems and weapons systems for the Seawolf/Virginias/688I's (and by assoc Collins) are optimised for fighting conventional subs in the littorals - and green water conflicts
CBASS is designed to deal with conventional subs
the Venezuelans might have bought the toys, but they won't have sea time experience. A venezuelan sub against a USN sub crew who train for long range and persistent missions - no contest.
dissimilar training - the venezuelans don't have adversity training against any competent "orange" forces. no training = less capability.
9 subs? more like 9 targets.
Isn't that a bit of a simplistic view?
1. They are not building their submarine force from scratch
2. They have lots of oil money to buy knowledge and experts to train their crews
3. As 9 subs won't materialize all of a sudden but take quite a few years to build and deliever, there's plenty of time
4. An state of the art SSK still poses a threat and if operated properly is a pain in the ass
Isn't that a bit of a simplistic view?
1. They are not building their submarine force from scratch
2. They have lots of oil money to buy knowledge and experts to train their crews
3. As 9 subs won't materialize all of a sudden but take quite a few years to build and deliever, there's plenty of time
4. An state of the art SSK still poses a threat and if operated properly is a pain in the ass
Its hardly simplistic at all - its the reality of whats involved in training and having a competent sub force.
The venezuelans might have the money - but money does not translate into capability.
The Soviets had the money and the political will - and still lacked competency in ASW. Money is not the benchmark for competency.
They don't engage in DUCT - and the most competent Sth American navies in the region don't do co-operative training with them at all.
Of course 4 is valid. But new subs won't alter the fact that new toys don't demonstrate competency.
You do understand how long it takes to train up to that capability? I'd rate 3 other navies in that region a golden mile ahead of the Venzuelans.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Well, I must confess I don't know if the two 209-class subs are still operational and I don't know how long it would take to select and train crews, learn tactics and use of new equipment. So what do you think? How long would it take to become combat ready?
It's just that I'm quite worried about these news as I think the buildup of the Venezuelan navy clearly aims north and I always understood SSKs as a suitable means not only to disturb traffic but also as a force multiplier. Even if you have a greenhorn crew in those subs it will take a lot of efforts to find and destroy these subs in case of a confrontation. You will have to protect civilian ships (and perhaps close ports as well) and use a lot of MPAs and ships to search for them. Just the knowledge that they are there with (perhaps) submarine launched AShM is effective enough.
Imagine how much fear 4-5 of these subs in the mexican gulf would cause. Don't you think so? You don't seem to worry at all.
gf0012-aust is 100% correct. As someone who served 20 years in the USN I can tell you training is the most important part of preparing for warfare. If you do no't know how to operate the new weapons you have in all situations. You might as well saty home.
You cannot buy knowledge. You can oly gain knowledge through intense training & study.
Quote:
Imagine how much fear 4-5 of these subs in the mexican gulf would cause. Don't you think so? You don't seem to worry at all.
I'm not. The USN constanly trains to combat situations such as this. The USN has leased the Swedish sub HMS Gotland since the summer of 2005 for training purposes.
I know! Hi, bd! Nice to meet some other guy from the sinodefence-forum. I remember your discussions with that patriotic chinese kids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd popeye
I'm not. The USN constanly trains to combat situations such as this. The USN has leased the Swedish sub HMS Gotland
Yeah, I know. And I know that our (german navy) subs cross the atlantic for joint exercises regularly. I read on "Marineforum" (which isn't a forum but a magazine www.marineforum.info, sorry, it's german) that the USN had some difficulties with our tiny U206A-class boats in the past. It was claimed that during one exercise some years ago they could not be tracked but once and then were lost again. Perhaps you know something about these exercises? (I shall say that boasting is not too common with that magazine, which in the past proved reliable).
Ok, no comparison, the german submarine force exists for nearly 100 years now and sure is well trained.
But it would be interesting if things have improved?
I just read on www.meretmarine.com that the Venezuelan Navy admiral has announced the procurement of 9 SSKs (apparently with AIP + an autonomy of 50 days is required) with selection process finalized by end 2007.
France had refused to allow DCN to sell Scorpene, but it now seems that Spain has offered S-80. Since S-80 have American combat systems integration, it is now likely that Scorpène will be proposed to Venezuela after all. Spain will lead the procurement since Zapatero doesn't care about irritating the US (while France is being more moderate), with of course a workload split with DCN which is co-owner of Scorpene programme.
Other candidates are HDW U214 and Russia's Amur.
IMO if the objective is creating problems for the US, a modern SSK is the adequate weapons system, especially if it has AIP. Any surface vessel would be more easily destroyed by the USN than SSKs loitering around the Caribbean, where SSNs would be suboptimal.
I wonder if Venezuela will still be able to fund all this with the oil price crashing down in the last few months, but here we've got a serious issue.
Any comments ?
cheers
This is great news.. I wonder if they will be marketing rides and the like for the SSKs, Su27's, etc, etc.
It would add a lot to the tourism dollar.
Seriously though. You have to start somewhere. The key to gauging whether its a good start is to determine where the procurement drive has originated. if its from a professional source. e.g. Navy and wotshizface has actually listened, then I would give it more credence.
If it comes from wotshizface himself, then its a bit of a dead duck and unlikely to bear fruit, as he'll want to keep meddling in the process of development and trainign, I am sure.
I know! Hi, bd! Nice to meet some other guy from the sinodefence-forum. I remember your discussions with that patriotic chinese kids
Thanks. I've been lurking here for some time. But this subject intrest me very much.
Quote:
Yeah, I know. And I know that our (german navy) subs cross the atlantic for joint exercises regularly. I read on "Marineforum" (which isn't a forum but a magazine www.marineforum.info, sorry, it's german) that the USN had some difficulties with our tiny U206A-class boats in the past. It was claimed that during one exercise some years ago they could not be tracked but once and then were lost again. Perhaps you know something about these exercises?
As I have posted in another forum let me tell you my personal view of joint military excersises.
Joint military excersises or ant type of US military excersise is just that. An Excersise. Many times during these excersises there are limits placed on either side as to what they can and cannot due. As an example>>Once in 1981 my squadron on board CV-66 was not permitted to use certian aspects of it's equipment on our aircraft during an ASW excersise. We were a S-3 Viking outfit. Think about that.
I've been in on breifs where the word was put out that the "orange forces" were to win this time. And we "blue forces" will win the next time. Military excersises are often times orchcastrated by Admrial and Generals. And often limitations are placed on both sides.
Military excersises and wargames are for the benifit of both sides. They are used as a test of men and equipment and how well they are trained in their war fighting ablity.
That being said every military excersise is not conducted in the same. And, I'm in no way discounting the ablity of any SSK to elude the USN. I know they can. My son, A seinor surface sonar tech in the USN tells me SSK's are very hard to find. This is why the US contracted the Gotland. To learn how to find them and kill them..
The USN has had succes in tracking the Gotland. If I can later find a link to that story I will post it. It's in sinodefence forum somehwere...
And there was most Western Navy's hoping to cut back on ASW costs on their frigates with the decline of the Russian Sub threat. No doubt there might be something of a small but nonetheless important rethink now if these cheap but quiet SSK start to proliferate even further ?
Thanks. I've been lurking here for some time. But this subject intrest me very much.
