Update on Chinese Navy 2006

[norinco89]

I have a few questions that need to be answered.

a. Have the "Yuan" class gone into full productions and does it have AIP?

b. Did the type 93 or 94 finish sea trials.

c. Have they built any new destroyers after the 51c.

d. did they get thier last project 956em destroyer from russia and did they order more.

e. Are they builting the type 54 frigate and does the type 54a frigate exist.

f. what type of missiles does the litoral catamaran missile craft use?

g. they do anything with the Varieg yet.

expand on anything that is not old news. Please dont focus on Varieg. Please dont speculate like crazy. Facts please.

 

[rickusn]

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/57462.pdf

The above is a useful CRS report. Dont forget to read appendix A.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/default.asp

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/luhai_luhu_luda.htm


The above two sites on the Chinese Navy are quite good..

a.maybe
b.93 AFAIK 94 no
c. none reported
d. Three in service. One yet to be delivered.
e. Yes and havent seen a reliable report on further development.
f. Not finalized that I know of. Could be indigenous or Russian "Sunburn".
g. Work continues on it but exactly what is not certain.

 

[norinco89]

i mean have the type 54 and yuan gone into mass production.

I doubt it is the sunburn by its size and the lacks of thrust deflector and heat shilds on the ship.

i thinks the the y-62 or the y-803 or a new missile

 

[tphuang]

I just answer in there

I have a few questions that need to be answered.

a. Have the "Yuan" class gone into full productions and does it have AIP?
- testing for Yuan are apparently finished, I'm sure they are fixing some bugs before the operational version is ready. There was a claim recently that was supposed to be the last Song to be produced. It claims to have Sterling AIP. We will see.

b. Did the type 93 or 94 finish sea trials.
- 93 - probably, 94 - hasn't even fired off a SLBM yet
c. Have they built any new destroyers after the 51c.
- they are still building 116 as of late 2005, problems on 052C need to be addressed before mass production
d. did they get thier last project 956em destroyer from russia and did they order more.
- one caught fire, so delivery got delayed
- most likely no future orders of 956
e. Are they builting the type 54 frigate and does the type 54a frigate exist.
- 2 commissioned 054
- 054A is being built, no idea of the status. They are probably testing a lot of new stuff on 054A (rumoured hot launched VLS)
f. what type of missiles does the litoral catamaran missile craft use?
- most likely YJ-83
g. they do anything with the Varieg yet.
- yes, you can check the latest pictures of Varyag on SDF
expand on anything that is not old news. Please dont focus on Varieg. Please dont speculate like crazy. Facts please.

 

[norinco89]

Dpes any know if a ship need long range radar to use long range missiles?

Cause on a missile craft the radar only goes so far and the missiles range is about 5-6 time the radar's range.

So how would A FAC use such missiles

 

[tonbo]

hi all, you might wanna check out this thread:

http://www.war-sky.com/forum/htm_data/3/0604/184809.html

- it's got the development history of Varyag in pics, updated to 3 months ago, when they were redoing the flightdeck (nevermind if you dun read Chinese, it's pretty straight forward)

 

[Big-E]

You say don't focus on the Varyag, but I think looking at PLAN naval power you should. While everything is still speculation it is obvious that having moved it to Dalien that they are preparing to use it for active carrier take-offs, if they decide to fix her engines they could have her ready in 3yrs. With the Indian navy procuring 3 carriers by the next decade you have seen China's response, the production of 2 AEGIS destroyers and the refit of Varyag at Dalien. China is preparing for CBGs and don't be suprised if you see one in 5yrs centered around a refitted Kuznetzov class carrier.

 

[norinco89]

china does not care about india! i repeat it does not care about the indians. Sure they had past confrontations and still is a threat, but they are not worried about them. This can be seen by the number of air bases on west compared to east. It can also be seen by the lack of a indian ocean fleet.

CHINA IS WORRIED ABOUT THE EAST.

This includes the US pacific fleet, taiwan, and japan.

The main focus will be submarines for the next couple of years. The admiral is a ex submariner

Their main priority is to contain US carrier group. Chinese carrier group can not stop a US carrier.

They are expected to mass produce ships like the 52c, yuan class and 54

 

[Big-E]

china does not care about india! i repeat it does not care about the indians. Sure they had past confrontations and still is a threat, but they are not worried about them. This can be seen by the number of air bases on west compared to east. It can also be seen by the lack of a indian ocean fleet.

Then why is China and Pakistan building the Gwadar Port Project???

http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2528.html
http://www.ipcs.org/China_east_asia...yArticle=1009&issue=1009&status=article&mod=a

China wants to protect her oil supplies so she is seeking naval bases in the Indian Ocean. India is going to a 2nd tier navy in 10yrs. They are preping for something big here.

 

[tphuang]

Then why is China and Pakistan building the Gwadar Port Project???

http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2528.html
http://www.ipcs.org/China_east_asia...yArticle=1009&issue=1009&status=article&mod=a

China wants to protect her oil supplies so she is seeking naval bases in the Indian Ocean. India is going to a 2nd tier navy in 10yrs. They are preping for something big here.

In general, China's focus is on US, Taiwan and Japan. Its relationship with the Japanese is worse than ever. Its a referendum away from invading Taiwan. The Japanese navy is far stronger than the Chinese navy (I don't think we even need to bring the Americans into this to see the futility of the Chinese navy). So, it's real focus is in the East. It's focus on the oil supplies is also the Americans, because America can easily choke off China's trading and oil supplies that passes through the sea lanes. That's why it's building those ports. Of course, India is between China and the main oil supply, so that would make India a potential enemy. But in reality, China would much prefer working together with India. You can see that with the recent military exchange and exercises.

 

[norinco89]

Are they still producing Song class subs or is it all yuan class now. How do these subs compare to each other and western or russian modern diesel subs

What does AIP do exactly and is it equiped on these subs

 

[norinco89]

Forget about weather Yuan and Song are in production or not.

What is AIP?

How does it work?

What does it do

 

[Big-E]

Forget about weather Yuan and Song are in production or not.

What is AIP?

How does it work?

What does it do

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/usw/issue_13/propulsion.htm

 

[tatra]

Forget about weather Yuan and Song are in production or not.

What is AIP?

How does it work?

What does it do

AIP = air independent propulsion

How does it work? = That depends: Currently, system developers are actively pursuing the following generic approaches for achieving "closed cycle" operation:

• Nuclear power
• Closed-cycle diesel engines, generally with stored liquid oxygen (LOX)
• Closed-cycle steam turbines
• Stirling-cycle heat engines with external combustion
• Hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells

It should be noted that while Nuclear power is technically a form of AIP, the term is used moreoften to indicate conventional (i.e. non-nuclear) solutions

What does it do? Open-cycle diesel engines, lead-acid batteries, and electric motors for submerged propulsion became the standard submarine engineering plant that served well on submarines. AIP frees boats from the necessity of surfacing frequently for access to the atmospheric oxygen demanded by the gasoline or diesel engines that charged the batteries. So, it increased underwater endurance and/or underwater speed.

 

[rebellious]

china does not care about india! i repeat it does not care about the indians. Sure they had past confrontations and still is a threat, but they are not worried about them. This can be seen by the number of air bases on west compared to east. It can also be seen by the lack of a indian ocean fleet.

CHINA IS WORRIED ABOUT THE EAST.

This includes the US pacific fleet, taiwan, and japan.

The main focus will be submarines for the next couple of years. The admiral is a ex submariner

Their main priority is to contain US carrier group. Chinese carrier group can not stop a US carrier.

They are expected to mass produce ships like the 52c, yuan class and 54

what do u mean they dont care about india. taiwan is weak, a small island that doesnt pose a threat. they have an ok navy but they would never attack china and no i dont think theyre 'worried' about the US or Japan, there is no signs that a WAR will break out between them.
have u heard about the indian navy spending 8 billion dollars on project seabird?! theyre making asia's largest naval base. 3 carriers.
dont believe me? go to
and look under the modern navy section and then tell me if there is a lack of a fleet. there are countless number of ships, subs, being built. right now the indian navy is stronger than china's but maybe they can counter the indian developments.

 

[norinco89]

Okay certainly they care but let me ask you this.

What motive would china and india want to go to war with each other?

bordor? they are settling that diplomatically and besides no one really cares about a stretch of desert.

why would china want to war with Taiwan? they might declare indepence. They cant let this happen because other semi-automous regions mite also want to this.

US pacific fleet. they might come to taiwan's rescue. They are bigger than the chinese and indian fleet put together times 3 or 4. the big fish of the sea

Japan they are engaged in a dispute over islands that contain oil and natural gas. They already have deployed warships.(just a scare)



Let me ask you what do you think is more theatening. The the japanese, taiwanese and us pacific fleet or the indian fleet which is still half under contruction?

oh yeah bases in the indian sea are only for protection of the mallaca strait. if they war with taiwan or usa certainly that strait would be closed off by the US

 

[tphuang]

what do u mean they dont care about india. taiwan is weak, a small island that doesnt pose a threat. they have an ok navy but they would never attack china and no i dont think theyre 'worried' about the US or Japan, there is no signs that a WAR will break out between them.
have u heard about the indian navy spending 8 billion dollars on project seabird?! theyre making asia's largest naval base. 3 carriers.
dont believe me? go to
and look under the modern navy section and then tell me if there is a lack of a fleet. there are countless number of ships, subs, being built. right now the indian navy is stronger than china's but maybe they can counter the indian developments.

Why are there always posters so intent on making India into China's number 1 enemy? Nobody here is saying India isn't building a good navy, but that China does not look at it as an enemy. South Koreans are also building a good navy, should China start worrying by them? It has much urgent concerns with US and Japan. There are political and historical reasons why China is much more concerned about them. If you don't know this, I suggest that you do a little research on this.

Honestly, don't turn this into a PLAN vs IN thread. I'm tired of these threads.

 

[hehejee]

e...

In general, China's focus is on US, Taiwan and Japan. Its relationship with the Japanese is worse than ever. Its a referendum away from invading Taiwan. The Japanese navy is far stronger than the Chinese navy (I don't think we even need to bring the Americans into this to see the futility of the Chinese navy). So, it's real focus is in the East. It's focus on the oil supplies is also the Americans, because America can easily choke off China's trading and oil supplies that passes through the sea lanes. That's why it's building those ports. Of course, India is between China and the main oil supply, so that would make India a potential enemy. But in reality, China would much prefer working together with India. You can see that with the recent military exchange and exercises.

Why do you think Japanese navy is far stronger than the Chinese navy?Do you know exactly the capability of the PLAN.

 

[Big-E]

Okay certainly they care but let me ask you this.

What motive would china and india want to go to war with each other?

bordor? they are settling that diplomatically and besides no one really cares about a stretch of desert.

why would china want to war with Taiwan? they might declare indepence. They cant let this happen because other semi-automous regions mite also want to this.

US pacific fleet. they might come to taiwan's rescue. They are bigger than the chinese and indian fleet put together times 3 or 4. the big fish of the sea

Japan they are engaged in a dispute over islands that contain oil and natural gas. They already have deployed warships.(just a scare)



Let me ask you what do you think is more theatening. The the japanese, taiwanese and us pacific fleet or the indian fleet which is still half under contruction?

oh yeah bases in the indian sea are only for protection of the mallaca strait. if they war with taiwan or usa certainly that strait would be closed off by the US

Let me ask you this... What is the number one desire of Chinese citizens??? Do you know, its not any of the things you directly listed but is integrated to each point you make. Let me enlighten you, everyone in China wants a car. So what you might ask? Chinese energy consumption with the desire to drive an automobile means they want oil. The number one foreign policy objective of the PROC is to secure as much as they can wherever they can by any means neccesary. They don't care who they buy it from as long as they get, Iran, Venezuela it doesn't matter. This means they have to build a blue water navy to secure their trade routes. Why did they buy all those aviation cruisers? Because they want aircraft carriers. Why did they build AEGIS, b/c they want CBGs. The PLAN is going blue water folks, like it or not.

Why should they be concerned about India you ask? Because India will have 3 possibly 4 ACs in 15yrs. By this time PROC and India will be gas guzzeling giants just searching for crude. Only way to get it is by sea. Hence the Gadwar port project. The USA won't matter in this conflict b/c they will be switching to FLEX cars, (I hope). So you have India v China over oil. That's why you are seeing a naval buildup. If you don't think they will fight over oil just look at...well... enough said.

 

[contedicavour]

Pacific Ocean arms build-up

I'm not so sure the reasons for the arms build-up in China, India, South Korea and even in Japan can be tracked back to the very logical thinking of who will have better access to oil and other commodities in the next years. This surely plays a big role, fair enough.
However, seen from good old Europe, this all resembles the arms race we had in the first half of the 20th century, when powerful recently industrialized governments tried to dominate the others buying ever better battleships and fielding ever more mechanized divisions. Nationalism was the ideology that fed the arms race, and inevitably brought to confrontation despite all the trade and commercial interests that should have stopped this.
Let's just hope that good sense will prevail, and that emerging democracy will stop raw nationalism from escalading disputes. Especially in mainland China, where it would be tempting indeed to federate all Chinese, newly rich and the masses of poorer peasants in the interior, behind a message of "China against the enemy". Much more effective than whatever appeal the communist party may still have in that huge country.

Now, technically, since this is a military affairs site, I don't think it makes much sense for China to push for a blue-water navy with its current technology (even with the bits imported from Russia). The only SSBN is probably not operational, the Han class SSNs are so noisy that they can easily be followed as soon as they leave their bases, and despite some Sovremenny and DDG-51C ships, 95% of the Chinese surface escorts lack decent AAW or ASW equipment. Even the Sovremenny Russian-built DDGs have AAW missiles that are not VLS but still need to be launched like the old Mk-13 on the OH Perry USN frigates (i.e. one by one, max 7 a minute).
Priorities should be to have decent SSNs and several ships capable of defending themselves against harpoons, tomohawks, Mk48 ADCAP torpedoes and so on. A carrier with 2 dozen navalized SU-27 would be a superb asset but would probably be sunk by the Japanese or USN in no time with current SSNs and DDG/FFG.

cheers