Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister
This is a discussion on Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; taiwan would need a lot of subs to head off china blockade of any sort!
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Taiwan must acquire submarines ...
Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister
TAIPEI: Taiwan must acquire a fleet of submarines to prevent China from mounting a naval blockade of the island in the event of a war, Defense Minister Lee Jye was quoted by a newspaper as saying.
Quote:
Lee told parliament China "would require only 13 submarines to fully blockade Taiwan," one of the military options tipped to be used by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) against the island, the China Times said.
The PLA navy now operates a fleet of 86 submarines, 40 of them in the "new generation" category, Lee said.
In contrast, Taiwan navy's submarine fleet consists of two 50-year-old Guppy-class diesel-electric boats, both in very poor condition, and two Dutch-built Hai-Lung-class boats commissioned in 1987/88.
But Lee said Taiwan would be able to defend its waters if it went ahead with the purchase of eight submarines from the the United States.
The remarks come as Taiwan debates whether to spend 18 billion US dollars on eight conventional submarines, as well as 12 P-3C submarine-hunting aircraft and six PAC-3 missile systems.
Taiwan's cabinet on June 2 approved the special budget to buy weaponry from the United States. It needs final approval by parliament.
Critics of the deal warn the hefty military spending would further provoke China. Others say the government would be forced to incur more debts or cut social welfare and education budgets.
US President George W. Bush approved the submarine sale in April 2001 as part of Washington's most comprehensive arms package to the island since 1992.
Tensions between Taiwan and China have been growing following the re-election as president of Chen Shui-bian, from the pro-independence Democratic Progressive Party.
Re: Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister
The 18 Billion was for the P-3C's and the PAC-3 Patriot systems as well as the subs. Australian spent $6 Billion manufacturing it's current fleet of 6 Collins class Submarine's. That was back in the late 80's, early 90's. A new fleet of 8 subs, could easily cost $10-12 Billion with the PAC-3 Patriots and P-3C's making up the rest...
The 18 Billion was for the P-3C's and the PAC-3 Patriot systems as well as the subs. Australian spent $6 Billion manufacturing it's current fleet of 6 Collins class Submarine's. That was back in the late 80's, early 90's. A new fleet of 8 subs, could easily cost $10-12 Billion with the PAC-3 Patriots and P-3C's making up the rest...
If the price is thats high, it will be a political one but not the real price of the vessels. We're talking about SSK here and a unit cost of 1 bn or more is simply ludicrous. Collins class surely is no good example since the price the Aussies have payed here was far beyond good and evil.
Common prices for SSK range between 300 (Scorpene) and 500 ( Type 212A) million Euro (do the math for $). Of course since nothing is known yet about the exact details of the kind of SSK Taiwan is receiving, its difficult to name a price. But anything beyond 800 million to 1 bn $ per unit would be hilarious. Even that price is extremely high. Of course under the circumstances Taiwan may have to pay whatever price is offered in order to get some sub at all...
"The PLA navy now operates a fleet of 86 submarines, 40 of them in the "new generation" category, Lee said. "
What's their definition of "new generation"?
The submarines are newly build with obselete technologies and it'll be classified as "new generation"?
In that case, the PLAN should be the world's most formidable navy in the world, as it has commissioned so much more newly built ships in recent years compared to other navies, hence the PLAN is the most advanced navy in the world? LOL
Re: Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
The remarks come as Taiwan debates whether to spend 18 billion US dollars on eight conventional submarines, as well as 12 P-3C submarine-hunting aircraft and six PAC-3 missile systems.
The worth of that information is debatable since it raises certain questions. How intensive is japanese peacetime surveillance? Was a P-3C operating in the area during the time the chinese sub was approaching? Also P-3C as all MPA rely on various tools to detect enemy subs, the most efficient being sonobuoys, which obviosiously were not used here. If the Orion was not around at the right time, things such as MAD are useless as well.
It is questionable to compare a probably well timed political game by China with the circumstances under which taiwanese P-3C would operate in the situation of a chinese invasion. To say, the P-3C is not effective only because of that incident, is...well debatable at the very least.
The worth of that information is debatable since it raises certain questions. How intensive is japanese peacetime surveillance? Was a P-3C operating in the area during the time the chinese sub was approaching? Also P-3C as all MPA rely on various tools to detect enemy subs, the most efficient being sonobuoys, which obviosiously were not used here. If the Orion was not around at the right time, things such as MAD are useless as well.
It is questionable to compare a probably well timed political game by China with the circumstances under which taiwanese P-3C would operate in the situation of a chinese invasion. To say, the P-3C is not effective only because of that incident, is...well debatable at the very least.
If I not wrong ,during the South and North Korea infiltrator crisis in 1997.North Korea sent small sub to plant spies into south Korea! The North Korea sub route taken that time just past right through the exercise area which was conducted by South korea and US warship for ASW.They did not detect the sub.It was only engine failure that prevent the sub from returning to North after it hit the shore! Consider the standard of North Korea submarine fleet.I wonder how US and Taiwan is going to handle PLAN sub!
If I not wrong ,during the South and North Korea infiltrator crisis in 1997.North Korea sent small sub to plant spies into south Korea! The North Korea sub route taken that time just past right through the exercise area which was conducted by South korea and US warship for ASW.They did not detect the sub.It was only engine failure that prevent the sub from returning to North after it hit the shore! Consider the standard of North Korea submarine fleet.I wonder how US and Taiwan is going to handle PLAN sub!
Even if that sub passed through the area of operations, it makes no really valid argument for the chinese SSK/SSN to pass such a control with the same chance of not being detected. You see, there is a VERY big difference between the things NK is using as mini subs and the full sized ordinary sub ANY country may use for ordinary purposes.
Of course the NK mini subs are far away from being easily detectable. They are build for infiltration and although they are rather simple and not very reliable constructions (many sunk simply because of internal problems and I am close to say, we Germans or the Italians build better ones during WW2), they still got the advantage of being very small and having a very compact propulsion system. This simple physical facts alone make it difficult to detect them.
However its something completely different with a more "normal sized" sub.
If I not wrong ,during the South and North Korea infiltrator crisis in 1997.North Korea sent small sub to plant spies into south Korea! The North Korea sub route taken that time just past right through the exercise area which was conducted by South korea and US warship for ASW.They did not detect the sub.It was only engine failure that prevent the sub from returning to North after it hit the shore! Consider the standard of North Korea submarine fleet.I wonder how US and Taiwan is going to handle PLAN sub!
Even if that sub passed through the area of operations, it makes no really valid argument for the chinese SSK/SSN to pass such a control with the same chance of not being detected. You see, there is a VERY big difference between the things NK is using as mini subs and the full sized ordinary sub ANY country may use for ordinary purposes.
Of course the NK mini subs are far away from being easily detectable. They are build for infiltration and although they are rather simple and not very reliable constructions (many sunk simply because of internal problems and I am close to say, we Germans or the Italians build better ones during WW2), they still got the advantage of being very small and having a very compact propulsion system. This simple physical facts alone make it difficult to detect them.
However its something completely different with a more "normal sized" sub.
I wonder how many small subs does the PLAN have? Then the American and Taiwan needs to worry abt something.Maybe the PLAN have a number of sucide small sub ready for the American!
I wonder how many small subs does the PLAN have? Then the American and Taiwan needs to worry abt something.Maybe the PLAN have a number of sucide small sub ready for the American!
I doubt wether such subs are of any use against a force fielded by the US or someone else. You see, the single purpose of these subs, as I already mentioned before, is infiltration. Simply said they shall bring some troops/agents/whatever on dry land before they are shot at. They are not intended to be used in antiship operations (I guess most of them even lack any weaponry).
Re: Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis
I think the P-3C is not v effective!
It cannot even detect a 50's chinese sub,talking abt intercepting 80-90's tecnology sub? Read below!
Another unfortunate newsarticle that does not reflect actual events (as the newspaper would have no idea)
eg, Taiwan has technology in place that can alert her to a submarine presence without sending out physical assets. I would suspect that Japan has similar capability around areas of national interest.
Just because a nation doesn't talk about capability, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
eg, the capability to detect PLAN subs egressing from the straits has been around for years - and yet you will not see any references on the internet (heaven forbid!) on the internet.
As for a P3C not being effective or able to detect subs? ROFLMAO
You guys really need to pause before getting excited at newspaper articles.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Re: Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister
I just heard from one of my guys that one of the leading US submarines has such high-tech gadgetory on board that if its in the correct proximity of a foe's sub; the Americans can actually hear the conversations of the foe crew word to word. Ouch!
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