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This is a discussion on Submarine news within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Punta74 Interesting to note ASC could be split, and sold to the winner. All ships portion would ...


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Old April 7th, 2016   #76
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Interesting to note ASC could be split, and sold to the winner. All ships portion would then be up for grabs to the highest bidder, more than likely Austal it seems.

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/au...205308051.html
a guaranteed way to kill off a capability if Austal get it.

FMD, I hope the ex service people in DOFA get some decent input
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Old April 8th, 2016   #77
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a guaranteed way to kill off a capability if Austal get it.

FMD, I hope the ex service people in DOFA get some decent input
The best thing that could happen is get clean up the board (i.e. get it back to what it was a few years ago without any government mates etc.), concentrate on industry and subject matter experts, plus ex military and never never never any ex politicians, then publically list it with a 51% government ownership.

This means if things ever get completely out of hand the government can step in but any politically inspired BS will result in an immediate and appropriate response from the share holders. Any politically motivated gagging or criticism of ASC will be responded to quickly and assertively.
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Old April 17th, 2016   #78
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Norway downselects DCNS, TKMS for submarine project | IHS Jane's 360

Apologies if this has already been posted. In Europe, Germany and France will scrap it out for another contract, this time without the complications of a Japanese wild card.

I assume they will both be able to offer something tried and tested from their existing portfolios of conventional subs. It does reinforce their respective positions as the leading Western builders of conventional subs for export.
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Old April 18th, 2016   #79
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[ It does reinforce their respective positions as the leading Western builders of conventional subs for export.
none of their sales are to nations with similar operational requirements to australia
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Old April 25th, 2016   #80
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With the potential announcement of a winner this week regarding Oz next Subs, anychance of getting a poll up to see what general consensus with members is ?
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Old April 25th, 2016   #81
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With the potential announcement of a winner this week regarding Oz next Subs, anychance of getting a poll up to see what general consensus with members is ?
I have a sneaking suspicion it will be the Barracuda. I think the option to collaborate on the replacement of the Suffren would be likely be part of the deal.
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Old April 25th, 2016   #82
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I have a sneaking suspicion it will be the Barracuda. I think the option to collaborate on the replacement of the Suffren would be likely be part of the deal.
The first thing which comes to mind is the question, "you do know April 1st was over three weeks ago, right?"

A French selection is of course possible, but IMO would be the least likely choice, for several reasons.

There are/would be significant redesign issues/risks, in changing the propulsion and gen sets from nuclear to conventional/diesel-electric. With a French design selection, it would also introduce numerous and significant IP firewall issues, which would impact and increase the difficulty in fitting and integrating US sourced sensors, combat data systems, and munitions. To the point that it would likely be easier and cheaper to go all Euro-sourced systems for a French designed sub. Periscope, torpedoes, sonar arrays, combat data and comm systems, etc.
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Old April 25th, 2016   #83
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My gut feeling is the German offering...

They seem as a complete outsider to have 'run the best race' politically and we will not have quite the same ITARS / State Department issues with the German option as we will the French...

I can easily see the apparent lack of experience in international tenders coming back to bite the Japanese on the backside...

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none of their sales are to nations with similar operational requirements to australia
Neither did Sweden...
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Old April 25th, 2016   #84
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The first thing which comes to mind is the question, "you do know April 1st was over three weeks ago, right?"

A French selection is of course possible, but IMO would be the least likely choice, for several reasons.

There are/would be significant redesign issues/risks, in changing the propulsion and gen sets from nuclear to conventional/diesel-electric. With a French design selection, it would also introduce numerous and significant IP firewall issues, which would impact and increase the difficulty in fitting and integrating US sourced sensors, combat data systems, and munitions. To the point that it would likely be easier and cheaper to go all Euro-sourced systems for a French designed sub. Periscope, torpedoes, sonar arrays, combat data and comm systems, etc.
Not to mention the first of class Barracuda was laid down in 2007 .... And is now not likely to be launched until 2017. It was supposed to be in service by 2012.

So already late and needing major redesign. Smells like risk to me.
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Old April 25th, 2016   #85
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I can easily see the apparent lack of experience in international tenders coming back to bite the Japanese on the backside...
IIRC, neither did Kockums decades ago on such a complex task of building a new class of Submarine in and for a country two oceans away.
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Old April 25th, 2016   #86
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My gut feeling is the German offering...

They seem as a complete outsider to have 'run the best race' politically and we will not have quite the same ITARS / State Department issues with the German option as we will the French...

I can easily see the apparent lack of experience in international tenders coming back to bite the Japanese on the backside...
Got to agree with you here, the Japanese lack of playing the political game IMO will be its downfall but not the product. Hopefully the politicians may see a parallel between the genesis of Collins class and the offering from ThyssenKrupp being a submarine expanded from the Type 212 like the Collins was from the Västergötland class family of submarines.

have noticed the increase in PR in print and TV from ThyssenKrupp
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Old April 25th, 2016   #87
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I think it will be the Germans. They have run a tight race. They have been talking to people on the ground since before Collins. They hired all the key people right off the bat to run with. This isn't their first party. They have broad relevant experience to execute a project like this. They have been hammering price, capability, local build, low risk for years. Of anyone they are probably the only ones that can pitch an international submarine facility, which is the sort of stuff will get them home, local build content and local work. I think they have looked at what the RAN wants the most and tried very hard to meet that requirement (what they were burned on in Collins?). 60 Bunks, 10kt cruise with <20% indiscretion rate, lithium batteries, optional AIP with a 20 day endurance, multi-purpose lock for vertical launch weapons or personnel. To be honest they were the benchmark to beat.

The Japanese, while I think offering a very (the most?) compelling/complete out of the box platform, aren't quite ready to walk in and sort the shit out and provide a fool proof solution for the build. I think this has been too much of a learning experience (to beat the germans). I wouldn't rule out Australia and Japan sharing submarine technologies. I imagine this will be the silver lining for the Japanese if they weren't selected.

The french have been on their own planet a bit. But the proposal has compelling performance metrics, in a performance comparison they would score high (IMO from whats available). Risk, experience, costs would be weaknesses (IMO). The french fired pretty much their entire sub management team and started fresh about 12 months ago due to delays. But if you want a conventionally powered SSN that is pretty much what they are offering.

Arguably all 3 are offering the most amazing conventional submarine ever built. Which ever we choose I doubt the capabilities will be disappointing. Which is probably why there is a lot of pressure on low risk, on time builds.
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Old April 25th, 2016   #88
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IIRC, neither did Kockums decades ago on such a complex task of building a new class of Submarine in and for a country two oceans away.
yep, and thats been reinforced on lessons learnt everytime Collins comes up as a project to train people on......

lots of lessons learnt from Collins
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Old April 25th, 2016   #89
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The french have been on their own planet a bit. But the proposal has compelling performance metrics, in a performance comparison they would score high (IMO from whats available). Risk, experience, costs would be weaknesses (IMO). The french fired pretty much their entire sub management team and started fresh about 12 months ago due to delays. But if you want a conventionally powered SSN that is pretty much what they are offering.
Reminds me of the French guy caught smoking on a flight from Nice, France, to NY a number of years ago.

French smoker creates commotion on plane - CNN.com

His comment said it all, "Lebrun continued to verbally abuse individuals around him, yelling in substance 'I'm French, f*** you!'" according to the complaint.

A tad arrogant, yes???
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Old April 25th, 2016   #90
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Germans then Japanese

What would I prefer in an ideal world without political influence?
Japanese
Germans

I wouldn't in a blue fit go anywhere near a french offering.
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