Sub launched surface to air missiles - how useful?

STURM

Well-Known Member
Although sub launched MANPADS have been around for a while, they were not widely adopted. The Israeli's reportedly had Blowpipes on their subs and the Soviets had Strelas that could only be fired on the surface.

More recently DCNS is offering a sub launched version of Mistral and Diehl the IDAS that can be launched underwater. Assuming these and other future systems work as advertised and are widely deployed over the next decade, will it change the way ASW is conducted? Will helicopters with dipping sonars and torps be willing to conduct ASW duties in the knowledge that the hunted sub may be able to hit back? Or will this eventually lead to navies drawing up a requirement again for stand off ASW platforms like MILAS, Silex the retired Ikara?
 
Last edited:

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
There have also been a couple of successful underwater firings of the AIM-9X, with the target set apparently intended to include small surface vessels in addition to air targets.

I brought this up a while ago on another forum and the response I got seemed to indicate that while such developments were interesting and may give a submarine some additional flexibility in certain situations, it would be more of a last resort when it comes to responding to ASW helos, as the launch of the missile would give away sonar data to any other ASW platforms in the area. From my understanding a dedicated ASW package is going to include multiple helos/surface vessels running search patterns, and for a submarine to fire off a weapon in the midst of that would be highly hazardous.

One of the others on here with more knowledge might be able to tell you more.

Underwater AIM-9X
 

PCShogun

New Member
Agreed, a hunted sub is going to be deep and coming up that close to the surface is pretty much a final act. Plunking one of these out inside a bubble is interesting but I have no idea how it "Orients" itself to the target after reaching the surface, unless it just rotates around until it "See's" something.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
its about tactical context if you want to argue utility

otherwise you're doing an Alexander Graham Bell

Lots of concepts have been tried and tested, eg Iris-T

again, its about tactical context to establish relevance
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I suppose it would be good for a vindictive blaze of glory when you know you are not getting out of the situation you are in. Fire everything at anything and see what happens.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Resurrecting:

According to Europäische Sicherheit und Technik 08/14 the German Navy will finalize an outline for a "functional capability requirement" for a sub-launched surface-to-air missile until the end of this year, with this requirement to be tendered in 2015.

So, basically, IDAS is back on the table.

Plunking one of these out inside a bubble is interesting but I have no idea how it "Orients" itself to the target after reaching the surface, unless it just rotates around until it "See's" something.
IDAS requires target bearing and distance to be provided by the launching submarine for initial orientation; IIR seeker after breaking surface then evaluates all targets in FOV for confirmation/selection by operator.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
This got kicked around on another forum for a fair while and the general conclusion of the assembled sub community was that the things you needed to be doing to generate an attack on an aircraft would be pretty much contrary to the things you'd need to be doing if you were trying to avoid being prosecuted by an aircraft.

So, bit of a conflict of interests there - certainly, a niche capability.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This got kicked around on another forum for a fair while and the general conclusion of the assembled sub community was that the things you needed to be doing to generate an attack on an aircraft would be pretty much contrary to the things you'd need to be doing if you were trying to avoid being prosecuted by an aircraft.

So, bit of a conflict of interests there - certainly, a niche capability.
I think at some minimum threshold of effectiveness, it becomes something worthwhile.

If you can pop up and engage an aircraft before it can engage you (not entirely out of the realm of possibility...an ASW torpedo engagement is far from instantaneous), you've got something.

Reason is, aircraft also like to congregate where subs ability to go deep and hide or sprint off in random directions is limited (ie chokepoints, which also tend to be shallower). Still far fetched, but I really wouldn't be surprised to see it become a real capability at the end of the next few decades.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I wonder if there'd be any potential for a dual-purpose munition for light coastal strike or (relatively) low cost missile boat plinking. What do you think CB? I don't know if the idea has any legs, as the risk of exposing an expensive and highly effective sub for the sake of hitting much lighter targets doesn't sound like it's very efficient from a risk-reward perspective.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I wonder if there'd be any potential for a dual-purpose munition for light coastal strike or (relatively) low cost missile boat plinking. What do you think CB? I don't know if the idea has any legs, as the risk of exposing an expensive and highly effective sub for the sake of hitting much lighter targets doesn't sound like it's very efficient from a risk-reward perspective.
Might make much more sense if its fired from a UUV. Then why not. If you can fire and forget, and have some way of getting it far away (30 - 50 km) from where you are (torpedo?). By the time or if they can get another into the air you could hauling away into a much bigger box. In some cases they may only have one bird, so knocking it out may dramatically increase the odds.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder if there'd be any potential for a dual-purpose munition for light coastal strike or (relatively) low cost missile boat plinking. What do you think CB? I don't know if the idea has any legs, as the risk of exposing an expensive and highly effective sub for the sake of hitting much lighter targets doesn't sound like it's very efficient from a risk-reward perspective.
Check this out:

Navy Launches UAV from Submerged Submarine - U.S. Naval Research Laboratory

If you can launch a UAV, you can launch a small missile.

I've also seen the idea of a laser/DEW get kicked around as well. Far off stuff, but there's definitely interest in broadening the SSN's toolbox.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Check this out:

Navy Launches UAV from Submerged Submarine - U.S. Naval Research Laboratory

If you can launch a UAV, you can launch a small missile.

I've also seen the idea of a laser/DEW get kicked around as well. Far off stuff, but there's definitely interest in broadening the SSN's toolbox.
Very interesting, thanks for the link. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with sub-launched unmanned vehicles (whether flying or swimming) in the next five years. A fully networked drone fleet supported by a large nuclear boat could be a very frightening thing indeed...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Very interesting, thanks for the link. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with sub-launched unmanned vehicles (whether flying or swimming) in the next five years. A fully networked drone fleet supported by a large nuclear boat could be a very frightening thing indeed...
Already been trialled by USS Florida a few years back..... no public info since then
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
I wonder if there'd be any potential for a dual-purpose munition for light coastal strike or (relatively) low cost missile boat plinking. What do you think CB?
The closest I can think of was the now canceled Polyhem which was intended to deal with air and surface targets. Not sure if it was canceled to a lack of interest or for other reasons.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The closest I can think of was the now canceled Polyhem which was intended to deal with air and surface targets. Not sure if it was canceled to a lack of interest or for other reasons.
Lack of interest and other tech developments came along

USS Florida conducted both VLS and tube launched UAV's in trials
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Reason is, aircraft also like to congregate where subs ability to go deep and hide or sprint off in random directions is limited (ie chokepoints, which also tend to be shallower).
Also, don't forget in this regard which kind of environment the German Navy demands its submarines to be able to work in. 20-knot dashes submerged in 15 meter water depth.

I wonder if there'd be any potential for a dual-purpose munition for light coastal strike or (relatively) low cost missile boat plinking.
IDAS carries a multi-purpose warhead under development by Turkish company Roketsan and is specifically laid out for these missions, in addition to its capability to effectively act as a short-time offboard sensor for the submarine's systems.

This is also where IDAS really differs from DCNS' A3SM using fire-and-forget Mica-IR.

The closest I can think of was the now canceled Polyhem which was intended to deal with air and surface targets. Not sure if it was canceled to a lack of interest or for other reasons.
Polyphem died because Aerospatiale and Italmissile couldn't sell the product successfully to the French and Italian governments respectively, and the Bundeswehr was beginning a drawdown phase in which it would not fund a missile program that only yielded a new medium-range AShM for them. If I remember right Aerospatiale tried to peddle it as a surface-to-surface guided artillery supplement which the French Military did not want at the time.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Lack of interest and other tech developments came along

USS Florida conducted both VLS and tube launched UAV's in trials
The Jimmy Carter has shown the capability to launch UAV's as well, and did so when NK was shelling those SK islands.
 
Top