Spanish armada interested in the F-35B

[Alonso Quijano]

Admiral Rebollo told Jane's that the aircraft vertical takeoff Harrier II Plus AV8B need to be replaced in the long term and currently the only option is the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35B) Martin Locher. "In this sense - AJEMA said," the Spanish Navy has begun feasibility studies and risk analysis to enable our integration into the program in the early stages of production. This, according to some experts, there could be some 20 F-35B terminate before the Harrier, which will not occur before 2020.

was only a matter of time to state their views in favor of the F-35B ...

the point is that our carrier (PDA) can not operate the F-35B ...

so I think that will manufacture a new aircraft carriers and if they do not manufacture these 20 F-35B's have to take the JCI LHD, which would see no logic.

 

[Sea Toby]

was only a matter of time to state their views in favor of the F-35B ...

the point is that our carrier (PDA) can not operate the F-35B ...

so I think that will manufacture a new aircraft carriers and if they do not manufacture these 20 F-35B's have to take the JCI LHD, which would see no logic.

I think everyone fully expected in the future, say after 2020, that Spain would replace the PdA with a new carrier similar to the JCI.... designed as a carrier and not as a LHD/BPE...

 

[Alonso Quijano]

I think everyone fully expected in the future, say after 2020, that Spain would replace the PdA with a new carrier similar to the JCI.... designed as a carrier and not as a LHD/BPE...

can be ...

 

[StevoJH]

I think everyone fully expected in the future, say after 2020, that Spain would replace the PdA with a new carrier similar to the JCI.... designed as a carrier and not as a LHD/BPE...

Yeah, not really news.

Actually, given their lack of real out of area commitments, I wouldn't be suprised if they built a second JCI and designed a "barge" for lack of a better term that can be floated into the dock and used for munitions and fuel storage. It wouldn't be ideal, however I'm not sure spain could afford a new dedicated carrier and all the design work involved given that they also have quite a few submarines and frigates in need of replacement over the next 10 years or so.

Not to mention their fighter forces are getting a bit long in the tooth.

 

[Alonso Quijano]

Yeah, not really news.

Actually, given their lack of real out of area commitments, I wouldn't be suprised if they built a second JCI and designed a "barge" for lack of a better term that can be floated into the dock and used for munitions and fuel storage. It wouldn't be ideal, however I'm not sure spain could afford a new dedicated carrier and all the design work involved given that they also have quite a few submarines and frigates in need of replacement over the next 10 years or so.

Not to mention their fighter forces are getting a bit long in the tooth.

have also begun research for a future frigate F-110 and a second batch of ships BAM.
Spain submarines will need ...

and I see no problem in the future to manufacture a new PDA. :

frigate F-110:

http://media09.revistanaval.com/20091112-01-f110-conceptual.jpg

 

[harryriedl]

have also begun research for a future frigate F-110 and a second batch of ships BAM.
Spain submarines will need ...

and I see no problem in the future to manufacture a new PDA. :

frigate F-110:

http://media09.revistanaval.com/20091112-01-f110-conceptual.jpg

Then the questions begs what sort would Spain want, a Cavour type or larger and what sort of budget

 

[Alonso Quijano]

Then the questions begs what sort would Spain want, a Cavour type or larger and what sort of budget

still do not know anything official, but spoken like a ship JCI LHD but with less freeboard and dedicated only to work with aircraft.
in this way would save much money since the design of the hull and have it done with the LHD ...

here's a picture of what could be:

[ame]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e314/MAC1966/PDA2_2.jpg[/ame]

 

[Alonso Quijano]

will not let me put the link, put the URL with "http" first:


://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e314/MAC1966/PDA2_2.jpg

 

[StingrayOZ]

Cavour may have issues as a blue water ship with exposed lifts and lower deck.

A reconfigured BPE with significantly enlarged fuel (double or tripple it) and weapon bunkerage might be suitable combined with general reconfiguring. It does not have to lose the dock as such, but the dock may not be useful with additional fuel bunkerage and weapon bunkerage then it might be worthwhile to remove it.

Still pretty slow for a carrier, and based off what is really an amphibious ship. But then again might be much better as an amphibious carrier with carrier operations based around amphibious operations.

 

[harryriedl]

Cavour may have issues as a blue water ship with exposed lifts and lower deck.

A reconfigured BPE with significantly enlarged fuel (double or tripple it) and weapon bunkerage might be suitable combined with general reconfiguring. It does not have to lose the dock as such, but the dock may not be useful with additional fuel bunkerage and weapon bunkerage then it might be worthwhile to remove it.

Still pretty slow for a carrier, and based off what is really an amphibious ship. But then again might be much better as an amphibious carrier with carrier operations based around amphibious operations.

agree partly in regards with the Cavour she might have problems in an Atlantic swell with the deck edge quite low but it dose give quite a healthy amount of hanger space. Doesn't the Indian IAC have the same deck layout with the same deck edge lift and IAC though being significantly larger the difference isn't huge. Agree about the a reconfigured BPE but I think losing the dock would make more sense especially for carrier purpose getting a better hull for carrier ops to boost the hull to about 25kn-27kn with the same power plant. They would probably want another weapon lift as well.

One other question looking at the images of the BPE can the rear lift take an F35 as it looks rather small even for Harriers

 

[StevoJH]

agree partly in regards with the Cavour she might have problems in an Atlantic swell with the deck edge quite low but it dose give quite a healthy amount of hanger space. Doesn't the Indian IAC have the same deck layout with the same deck edge lift and IAC though being significantly larger the difference isn't huge. Agree about the a reconfigured BPE but I think losing the dock would make more sense especially for carrier purpose getting a better hull for carrier ops to boost the hull to about 25kn-27kn with the same power plant. They would probably want another weapon lift as well.

One other question looking at the images of the BPE can the rear lift take an F35 as it looks rather small even for Harriers

Its Designed to fit F35B and Chinooks without removing rotors isnt it?

 

[agc33e]

Being practical i see it better go for another jci because for spain amphibious operations are never little, humanitarian aid, troop and vehicles transport, in general they will use more in reality the lhd bi-function than a big pure carrier.
Also the utility of a carrier it is not just do many sorties or having a big sortie rate, nowadays the biggest threat for fleets, apart from subs is a mass attack, that is make a few waves from different approachs to the hostile, with many missiles at the same time, and for that you dont need high sortie rate you just need to be able to put them progressively fast in the air and landing them in order, you might just need 20 tonnes of jp5 to sink a full fleet with 20 jets.
One thing is to have a permanent presence inn your sky, or do a massive selective bombing over a full country, for that you might need much jp5 and sortie rates, but for launching your jets whenever you want to hit at precise moment, or to face a battle in a given moment....

But that is talking about many years in the future, because pda has a second new life to live, long life to harriers...

And seeing the price are going the f35b´s, 60-100 mill euros? i would buy the harrier planes and update them.. with itp in spain having enough engine capacity and all the companies involved in the eurofighetr production... i think spain should offer the full package to the market, the ship plus the jets..

 

[StevoJH]

Who are the spanish thinking of going to war with that actually have the resources to carry out a massive anti-shipping strike from multiple aspects? The Red Banner Northern Fleet no longer exists.

Iran and North Korea's Air Forces are a farce compared to the F-35 in both range and capability. Venezuala is all show and probably very little go.

China is the only country I could see Spain (as part of NATO or the EU) going to war with who has that capability. And any war with China would involve the rest of NATO, particularly the UK, US and France. Plus depending on the situation there may be land basing for aircraft available in Malaysia and Singapore to aid with Air Cover (FPDA).

 

[agc33e]

I have seen animated pictures, postted in tha ran thread, with the chinook in the rear lift, but i can ensure you that both lifts are for the f35b, as never heard nothing against that. You can put the tale of the aircraft outside the lift perimeter.

To put the chinooks in the hangaar they have to remove the rotors or whatever is that.

 

[agc33e]

Who are the spanish thinking of going to war with that actually have the resources to carry out a massive anti-shipping strike from multiple aspects? The Red Banner Northern Fleet no longer exists.

Iran and North Korea's Air Forces are a farce compared to the F-35 in both range and capability. Venezuala is all show and probably very little go.

China is the only country I could see Spain (as part of NATO or the EU) going to war with who has that capability. And any war with China would involve the rest of NATO, particularly the UK, US and France. Plus depending on the situation there may be land basing for aircraft available in Malaysia and Singapore to aid with Air Cover (FPDA).

I am not thinking in anyone, i just want to have as much capabilities as possible, like you, just in case, you could have war with a nato country, or with could have as part of nato go to georgia...
Do you think the italians because they have the gg might be thinking in a certain potential conflict with a country?
We dont want to have war, but we should keep improving (not the spanish, everyone).

The subs program is scheduled in the budgets things, the four s80 are like "paid" or the money is already reserved.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Spain has some outlying islands beyond what they would normally concider land based aircraft operating over. For example canary Islands, but also mainland african territories. Look at it from their view is the sort of thing they won't get carrier support off the americans for but still need aircover, and there are most likely no friendly airbases to operate from.

Its possible Morocco/algeria could rise up and try to take some of these territories or trying to administer them. Now your talking about Mirages (50), F5's , F16s, mi29's. There has been near constant fighting for many years, although not as bad as other areas of Africa, colonisim is in a grey zone and independance has yet to happen. Basically its a potential hotspot and all it would take is some crazy leader or radicals from any player to send it into a spin.

Does spain need a full time carrier? Hmm maybe not. I guess BPE is a bit of an experiment to see what it can and can't do effectively. It has the ability to deploy (or withdraw) fixed wing jet aircraft, that may be enough in combination with fighters from land bases. But having 4 or 5 aircraft on deck ready to go, when threats are spotted they can be scrambled and deter or engage forces. They could also be called in for ground or shipping strikes, as aircraft comming from land bases will take hours to arrive at which point the target has moved on, or moved out, or performed its mission.

Two BPE might be all Spain needs.

 

[kev 99]

And seeing the price are going the f35b´s, 60-100 mill euros? i would buy the harrier planes and update them.. with itp in spain having enough engine capacity and all the companies involved in the eurofighetr production... i think spain should offer the full package to the market, the ship plus the jets..

Where are you thinking that Spain can buy more Harriers from? The production lines are closed and no one seems willing to sell second hand ones.

 

[agc33e]

Where are you thinking that Spain can buy more Harriers from? The production lines are closed and no one seems willing to sell second hand ones.

I am talking to buy the transfer of technology, how to make the harrier, and improve it with today´s electronics, and then sell them at 15-20 mill euros per harrier....it´s not all big production lines, for 30 jets for spain and anothers for the uk maybe they could finance them.

 

[StevoJH]

I am talking to buy the transfer of technology, how to make the harrier, and improve it with today´s electronics, and then sell them at 15-20 mill euros per harrier....it´s not all big production lines, for 30 jets for spain and anothers for the uk maybe they could finance them.

1) There are harriers with modern avionics GR.9, if you wanted a radar, you'd intergrate blue vixen.

2) Why would the UK/BAe sell the technology for the harrier? Fairly sure BAe still maintains at least partial production capability as they completely rebuilt an Indian harrier a while back.

3) UK is not buying more harriers, they are getting F-35. If they wanted more harriers they would have built them already.

 

[AegisFC]

1) There are harriers with modern avionics GR.9, if you wanted a radar, you'd intergrate blue vixen.

When the UK offered to sell India a batch of recently retired Sea Harriers it was without Blue Vixen, so I'm pretty sure the UK isn't interested in selling that radar set to anyone.