This is a discussion on South Africa to possibly purchase LPH within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3098278&C=navwar
Following the example of an increasing number of countries around the world, South Africa is looking at buying one ...
Following the example of an increasing number of countries around the world, South Africa is looking at buying one or two LPH.
Concidering that South Africa has only a very small navy, with a very limited budget (about $180 million - 2007 exchange rates) and about only 5000 personell(military and civilian), it seems to me that this purchase will be a very difficult excercise.
On the other hand it is reported that only one ship might be bought by the SA Navy with the other possibly bought by the Southern African region(meaning that it will be funded mostly by the South African Government outside of the regular defence budget with other Southern African Development Community states chipping in).
The vessels are to be used in peace support operations and no one can dispute the utility of such vessels in these roles. And since the rest of the world is mostly a willing financial donor, but a reluctant donor of airlift and boots on the ground, such a vessel would be a huge boost to peace keeping on the continent.
However such a purchase would have to be supported by the SA government with increased funding on a number of fronts. Troops to be embarked are already there. The South African Air Force posseses enough helicopters(roughly 35 Oryx;30 A109;12 Rooivalk;4 Super Lynx 300) to form an ad hoc air group and enough army and engineer vehicles are available. On paper this looks good, but yet the Air Force seems to be struggling to deploy more than two or three helicopters on peace support operations at the moment.
So, it is on the training and operations fronts that additional funding will be needed. Air groups(even ad hoc ones, need to work up for deployment and so do infantry batalions(9 South African Infantry Batalion based in Cape Town is the batalion in question so far).
The 2007/08 financial year saw a 40% increase in the training and operations budget for the Defence Force as a whole, however if one considers the years of under funding(from the 1990's), more will defenitely be needed.
A marine batalion is not a new concept for South Africa and during the 1980's the Navy had a small marine batalion of its own(capable of being deployed from the two support ships, SAS Drakensberg and SAS Tafelberg, although these were not amphibious vessels per se)
Almost all of that expertise will have been lost by now and will have to be regained.
Looking at the three possible contenders, it is my belief that the French Mistral class will be the most suitable for South African requirements. The country would in all probability not be able to embark more than 400 - 500 troops on a prolonged deployment anyway and seeing that this is the standard fit for this class of ship it would be perfect. 12 - 16 helicopters embarked would be more than enough, since the Air Force would be hard pressed to even make up that number, plus as the recent visit to South Africa by FNS Tonnere has shown, all SA Army vehicles are easily deployable from the vessel.
The Spanish design(similar to the ones being purchased by Australia at the moment, I believe would be to large, coming in at 27 000 tons displacement with too much capacity. The German design of a modified freighter would not fit requirements being too small.
As far as affordabillity goes, at the aforementioned price of about $666 million per ship, this would be easily affordable by the South African economy, since the major arms procurements(Gripen, Hawk, A109,Super Lynx 300,naval vessels are winding down over the medium term). South Africa spends less than 2% of GDP on defence(the NATO norm) and this will not have to change to effect the purchase.
These are my personal views. Please feel free to add, detract or state an opinion on the matter.
TKMS has pretty good chances in my opinion. They've pretty much built the entire modern SAN - frigates and subs; only other foreign-built units are the MCMV, also built in Germany (the Sa'ar 4 are being decommed as the frigates take up service).
Also note that two German industry groups GFC and GSC are heavily lobbying for Project Millenium, with some deep embedding into SAN lobby organization for that purpose (they're organizing conferences on the topic for the SAN and such). TKMS is a member (or rather, the primary member nowadays) of both of those groups.
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The German design of a modified freighter would not fit requirements being too small.
Ah, no one said anywhere which design would be offered. You're probably thinking of the MEKO-derived MRV, which is a multi-role freighter.
In competition with Mistral, TKMS would be far more likely to offer the MHD-150 (or MRD-15000, or whatever they're calling it now). Which is a full 15,000-ton small LHD (with 5 helo spots, hangar for 11 helos, 800 lane meters, LCU/LCAC docking well, accomodation for over 750 troops etc), and would probably cost in the same range as a Mistral.
It's interesting that SA isn't even considering the Netherlands, ie Schelde. Navantia would probably have far better chances offering a Galicia, ie a Schelde Enforcer basically.
Thanx Kato for the reply and additional information.
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Ah, no one said anywhere which design would be offered. You're probably thinking of the MEKO-derived MRV, which is a multi-role freighter.
In competition with Mistral, TKMS would be far more likely to offer the MHD-150 (or MRD-15000, or whatever they're calling it now). Which is a full 15,000-ton small LHD (with 5 helo spots, hangar for 11 helos, 800 lane meters, LCU/LCAC docking well, accomodation for over 750 troops etc), and would probably cost in the same range as a Mistral.
I understood the Defense News article to be referring to a modified freighter design, not knowing TKMS had a LHD design(being more of an aviation enthusiast myself )
wow.. Looks to be a very capable compact design and I would have to agree now, given the large naval deals with Germany in the past, that it would be the favourite for the SA Navy contract.
Thanx Kato for the reply and additional information.
I understood the Defense News article to be referring to a modified freighter design, not knowing TKMS had a LHD design(being more of an aviation enthusiast myself )
wow.. Looks to be a very capable compact design and I would have to agree now, given the large naval deals with Germany in the past, that it would be the favourite for the SA Navy contract.
its nicely design with a slight problem is that it hasn't been ordered [unlike the mistral class].
i like the SA LPH program as it would be perfect for Humanitarian aid in Africa for the resent flooding it would have been excellent and it seems to fairly split between Mil and non mil roles which is appleing to the polations
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Even for a comparatively small navy an LPH or LHD makes a lot of sense because of the tremendous range of capabilities and options it can offer a defence force. Modern LPH/LHD's can also be manned by comparatively small crews. IMO, the purchase of a ship (or ships) of this type would be an excellent move by South Africa.
It's somewhat interesting what Helmoed-Römer Heitman states in that article. He's the South-African correspondent for Jane's Defence Weekly btw.
I'm referring to the "Tonnere is somewhat short on vehicle space for African Operations". I've yet to find out just how many lane meters Mistral and Tonnere have (afaik the French just don't measure it that way), i do know that the vehicle decks are 2650m². So, about 750-800 lane meters i'd guess. The relatively large well deck for two LCAC cuts into it. The Mistral class BPCs are somewhat optimized for helicopter operations anyway.
TKMS could probably offer two distinct designs:
- Meko A200 MRD "freighters" in larger numbers (2-3) offering a large amount of interoperability with the SANs existing Meko A200 (Valour class)
- a larger system like MHD-150 or something derived (a single unit) to directly compete in the same class with DCN and Navantia
It's somewhat interesting what Helmoed-Römer Heitman states in that article. He's the South-African correspondent for Jane's Defence Weekly btw.
I'm referring to the "Tonnere is somewhat short on vehicle space for African Operations". I've yet to find out just how many lane meters Mistral and Tonnere have (afaik the French just don't measure it that way), i do know that the vehicle decks are 2650m². So, about 750-800 lane meters i'd guess. The relatively large well deck for two LCAC cuts into it. The Mistral class BPCs are somewhat optimized for helicopter operations anyway.
I was also a bit surprised by that comment. The version of this class that was offered to Australia was to carry up to 150 vehicles, including Abrams MBT's, which seems to me to be a reasonable number.
The spanish BPE is the perfect ship.
I believe that Navantia will offer a good price, because winning in SA, after the great success in Australia will open new market for many countries with medium navies that can not to effort a light stovl aircraft carrier (ex.: Cavour), but want to have the opportunity to partecipate to international scenarios and may be in the future to buy som JSF or Av8B+.
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The spanish BPE is the perfect ship.
I believe that Navantia will offer a good price, because winning in SA, after the great success in Australia will open new market for many countries with medium navies that can not to effort a light stovl aircraft carrier (ex.: Cavour), but want to have the opportunity to partecipate to international scenarios and may be in the future to buy som JSF or Av8B+.
problem with SA perches of BPE is its a bit expensive and the don't have the fleet to operate fixed wing not enough escorts[not good enough MEKOs with Sea Sparrows and only 4] not enough subs.
i think AV-8 are out SA price range and JSF is very unlikely [Gripen has been bought so no new fighters are very unlikly].
helos only i think and loads of space for stuff.
i would be surprised to sea do any war fighting
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Colin McRae 1961-2007 true champion
Unofficial Royal navy cheering section
i think AV-8 are out SA price range and JSF is very unlikely [Gripen has been bought so no new fighters are very unlikly].
helos only i think and loads of space for stuff.
i would be surprised to sea do any war fighting
South Africa will defenitely not purchase any more fighter aircraft. There was a HUGE uproar in the country by anti - defence lobbyists when the original strategic defence package contract was signed. Plus ongoing rumors of corrupt practices during the deal, did not help the government when they tried to explain to an ignorant public that having a minimum deterrent was essential.
If these vessels are bought they will defenitely only be used for helicopter carrying and peace keeping(maybe -enforcement in a limited sence).
The SAN does not have an air arm, (the Super Lynx are operated by the Air Force on behalf of the Navy, although they wear Navy titles). What might happen is, that we might see US Marine Corps F35B's from the new Africa Command operatng from the decks of a South African vessel in an excercise environment.
South African vessels have in recent months been involved in three excercises with the US Navy:
- Excercise Amazolo with NATO standing maritime group one off the South African coast
- An informal excercise with USS Doyle and the Ghanaian Navy off the east coast of Africa
- Excercise Indunduma off the South African coast
Last edited by neil; October 23rd, 2007 at 09:22 AM.
Reason: Spelling
The spanish BPE is the perfect ship.
I believe that Navantia will offer a good price, because winning in SA, after the great success in Australia will open new market for many countries with medium navies that can not to effort a light stovl aircraft carrier (ex.: Cavour), but want to have the opportunity to partecipate to international scenarios and may be in the future to buy som JSF or Av8B+.
I think they'd be better off with smaller vessels. Better two small than one large. And for S. Africa the STOVL issue doesn't arise.
BTW, nobody is going to be buying AV-8B+ in the future. It's out of production, & nobody is selling any second hand.
[Edit] I wonder if something really small, like the Singaporean Endurance class LPDs might be suitable?
Last edited by swerve; October 25th, 2007 at 10:23 AM.
Some points from that which emphasize low-cost implementation:
- The 2x16-cell VLS and MCG (max 155mm) in the slides are optional, basic layout is the six small guns, which would be SEA ROGUE systems
- Construction would be to commercial standards except for armament, storage etc
- 2D radar standard, 3D radar optional
- EW system optional only
Some other points:
- helo elevator has 25 tons max load (... Harriers, anyone?)
- multi-purpose deck can store 54 containers (20ft ISO); 40 more TEU in vehicle deck possible, modular containerized hospital optional
Great find. Don't think TKMS has released that much information on it ever before.
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Can't claim the credit. A compatriot of yours calling himself 'Gunner5" ' posted the link under "Naval Aviation" on Key Publishing Aviation Forums.
Ugly as sin, but an interesting design. The dock looks quite short, but for a multi-role ship like this I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not meant to be an all-out amphibious assault ship needing the greatest possible landing craft capacity. Could be a good ship for South Africa & any countries with similar requirements.
I think that is the sort of ship they should be chasing.
The BPE is for a navy with larger requirements. For example landing a full strength battalion + gear. It doesn't have a deck gun, or many of these neato features a smaller navy would like to have.
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