Russia could make subs for Taiwan

XEROX

New Member
By Debby Wu Taipei Times
STAFF REPORTER , WITH CNA
Saturday, Jun 26, 2004,Page 1

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2004/06/26/2003176566


Russia may become the source for eight diesel-powered submarines that Taiwan intends to buy from the US, the Washington Times reported Friday.
Quoting a Pentagon official, the paper said, Russian President Vladimir Putin has quietly signed off on the deal on the condition that the submarines are sold to the US.
"If the Americans resell them [to Taiwan], it's none of Russia's business," the Pentagon official quoted Putin as having told US officials.
Other options call for using another European design or building the submarines from the US Barbell-class diesel submarine design, the paper said.
Meanwhile, two legislators who visited the US with Legislative Speaker Wang Jin-pyng (王金平) insisted yesterday that renegotiating on the price for the arms deal with the US and assembling the submarines domestically were necessary.
"The US admitted during our visit that the estimated price was too high, because they measured the cost of maximum spending. The US authorities said that the next time we demand the builders to bid again, the price would not be as high." People First Party Legislator Lin Yu-fang (林郁方) said.
"It is also important that we will be allowed to assemble the submarines domestically because it has become a trend for countries to build their own submarines, and the legislature has also passed the resolution that Taiwan should assemble its own submarines," Lin said.
"If we refer to the experiences of Pakistan, India, Greece and South Korea, China Shipbuilding Corp (中船) is definitely capable of building submarines as soon as the US passes technical details to the corporation," Lin said.
Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Lu Shiow-yen (盧秀燕) meanwhile pointed out that while President Chen Shui-bian (陳水扁) said if the legislature did not grant the budget plan for the arms deal before the US presidential election, the deal might not be sustained afterwards, the US sent no such signals to visiting legislators.
Lin and Lu returned early from Washington yesterday, skipping the group's last stop at El Paso, Texas.
Regarding the P-3C maritime patrol aircraft, Lin said he hoped Taiwan did not have to purchase as many aircraft since the US would start to manufacture a more advanced maritime patrol aircraft in a few years, and Taiwan should consider to purchase models more advanced than the P-3C in the future.
"The arms deal this time costs over NT$610 billion, and the US still needs to provide further detailed information for the legislature's review. I don't support the idea of reviewing and passing the budget plan in a rush during the extra legislative sittings in summer," Lu said.
"Instead the budget plan should wait till the new legislative session starts in September to undergo the normal legislative review process. It should undergo the review from the National Defense Committee, and after the committee reaches a consensus, then it can be discussed on the floor," Lu said.
Both Lin and Lu said that the Ministry of National Defense did not bargain for the best deal during previous negotiations with the US, but the legislators visiting the US had pressured the US to concede on certain issues. They demanded the ministry strive for better deals in the future.
Meanwhile, Wang led the rest of the legislators in examining the PAC-III Patriot anti-missile batteries in El Paso, Texas, yesterday.
The group was briefed about the batteries and had the chance to experience the batteries with simulation exercises.
It was the group's last stop in the US, and the legislators would either return to Taiwan, or continue with their respective schedules abroad.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
PJ-10 BrahMos said:
very intresting, i thought china and russia were very close
No, it's a relationship of commercial convenience only - there is no love lost between China and Russia, there are still some significant wounds in place.

As for this report, 48 hrs prev it was said that Spain would build them under license.

Taiwan is probably one of the richest nations on earth, their problem is not an issue of being able to afford it, but whether they want to spend it - 2 very different things.

This report really has no substance, it's already been discounted elsewhere, I'll see if I can trace the responses.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
I think this is unlikely, if Russia sells subs to Taiwan then they risk hurting the huge market from China resulting in severe drop in foreign weapon sale income. Something which is not an acceptable loss to Russia at this moment.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
China can't afford to stop buying from Russia. EU and US don't sell stuff to China, Russia is her only source.
 

Proteus

New Member
srirangan said:
China can't afford to stop buying from Russia. EU and US don't sell stuff to China, Russia is her only source.
LOL. China can always stop buying arms from russia(the money in our hand not theirs),russian know if they do sell to taiwan then a nowin for both country.they lost money and we lost a good arms source. They need us as much as we need them. But taiwan well never buy as much as we do,so I find it very very unlikely russian well sell those sub to taiwan. 2Dollar is more then 1dollar...very simple... :smokingc:
 

corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah and if Russia does stop arms supplies to China, There is always the option of israel, Black market and indigenous industries.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Sales from Israel will alwyas be tightly controlled by the US, CHina won't like that.

Black Market, hehe are you kiddin me. Highly unreliable, unethical and China can't get most of the modern stuff they'ld need.

Indigenous industries, if China had them then they wouldn;t be buying from Russia in the first place. Currently their local production is not upto the mark.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
well china could do some under-table deal with Germany or France. Their weapon system has always proven to be more reliable than russians.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Well China could prolly contact extra terrestial intelligence and build UFO's too .. but we can't base our arguments on hypothetical scenario's .. And under table stuff is always a no-no :)
 

adsH

New Member
Sri being sarcastic and ignorant is no excuse that you can use to Reason here, have you never heard of Under table deals!!, their is a well known black market that countries deal inn!! China has been buying Naval equipment for its Navy from France for a long time. proof is.. Pick any Chinese vessel and it will have clones of French made equipment.
 

Proteus

New Member
srirangan said:
Sales from Israel will alwyas be tightly controlled by the US, CHina won't like that.

Black Market, hehe are you kiddin me. Highly unreliable, unethical and China can't get most of the modern stuff they'ld need.

Indigenous industries, if China had them then they wouldn;t be buying from Russia in the first place. Currently their local production is not upto the mark.
Nowdays Russian build is cheapr then Chinese build,that is why we are buying so much from Russia. Chopers like Mi-8/17 is very good example,we don´t build them because is much cheaper buying from russians. PLANavy buying RUssian ships because our own shipyard is at it´s full capacity. Only Airforce has the "need" to buy arms from Russian.

And black market is "unethical"? You are joking,right? What arms sells go´t to do with ethic? And a country like china is not like terrorist,we can get a lot of modern arms from black market. The only reason not to do so,is that BM arms cost a lot more.

No things to worried :smokingc:
 

adsH

New Member
it is unethical absolutely unethical. but it still exists.Large Arms producers providers do it apparently. they need to sell, and where there is no market they make one by these sorts of sales. It is unethical to buy any technology from any country by breaching Import exports laws. but sometimes desperate countries like Pakistan, with there only form of front line defense F-16 have to resort to buying Expensive Black market spare Parts. But where did these parts come from is the question, the only people that allow sales are the original manufacturers because it a tightly controlled production. YOu get my point.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
adsH said:
it is unethical absolutely unethical. but it still exists.Large Arms producers providers do it apparently. they need to sell, and where there is no market they make one by these sorts of sales. It is unethical to buy any technology from any country by breaching Import exports laws. but sometimes desperate countries like Pakistan, with there only form of front line defense F-16 have to resort to buying Expensive Black market spare Parts. But where did these parts come from is the question, the only people that allow sales are the original manufacturers because it a tightly controlled production. YOu get my point.
One of the reasons why India has had so many problems with older Migs is because the Russians have been either charging exhorbitant rates - or they don't have them. So India has had to resort to buying or sourcing second hand parts.

In one of the aerospace consultancies I did a few years back, once a month we would be approached by Indian "middlemen" trying to buy looms off of second hand aircraft. Under international agreements, it's not permissible to sell some components second hand (especially on a wrecked or tagged airframe)

Sometimes, nations get desperate. Both India and Pakistan have been in identical situations.
 
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