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This is a discussion on Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by MrConservative The recent OECD report blames management approaches being poor in NZ and I would tend to ...


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Old July 5th, 2017   #5431
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The recent OECD report blames management approaches being poor in NZ and I would tend to agree. I would also say that the HR side of things is where it is worse. There are a lot of people highly qualified - but in name only!! They have the paperwork, the qualifications but not the ability. Part of that productivity mis-match is the focus on jobs and training - some of the bloody courses on offer for youth in recent years are nonsense - and all with student loan debt. All glamour and BS most of it with very little substance or prospects but for the lucky and connected few....

Interestingly, and I do not want to go all hippie on you but - there is a connection with lifestyle choice and productivity as well and is one of those reasons why defence does not rate high as a bi-product. Kiwi's have very high notions of well being & personal and with our relative 'local' environmental peace and our physical isolation and psychological isolation with the rest of the world - the out of sight out of mind relativism.



Having followed this sentiment for years I have noted a change from about 15 - 20 years ago. I think that now the general public are relatively supportive of Defence spending than many would believe. Problem in recent history is that various GOTD were either more interested in other things like you noted and/or were scared of vocal minority / media more than doing what is right.

When we get down to brass tacks in naval terms - I am not talking about a radical and massive growth with subs, and destroyers - I am talking about one more frigate to make a minimum 3 and one or two more regular OPV's and in the future a medium sized LHD.

But in the mean time we are stuck with incrementalism - some good things are being done in Defence and the navy - but I demand that the gapping holes in the fundamentals - EEZ and Ocean taskings are given priority and finalised. Maybe that reflects back to the poor management conceptualisation in New Zealand. Not meeting benchmarks and not completing the job properly or using procrastination as a planning tool and thinking it is valid.
Totally agree with your sentiments in this regard. I was in lower management (production management) my self and did not like what was the prevailing notion that every thing revolved around the balance sheet with little regard to other factors such as moral and engagement of the work force. I once by default was given control of a soon to be closed production line,(7 months time) and changed it from a $580000 production deficit to a $1.3m positive variance by improving moral, making the staff feel more engaged, simplifying their jobs to make easier for them to do them well and being positive and concentrating on what was going right to give the staff a sense of achievement.
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Old July 14th, 2017   #5432
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The Halifax modernization program was completed on time and and on budget, one of the few bright spots for the RCN. I think NZ can be confident the same will apply to the ANZAC upgrade.
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I'm confident LockMart will deliver exactly what NZ pays for. It is the 'paying for' bit that I'm concerned about. Reading between the lines of that Treasury evaluation, I think NZDF are having to make some hard choices about what capability upgrades they can't afford. History would suggest some penny-pinching now will cost a small fortune to fix somewhere in the future...
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Old July 15th, 2017   #5433
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The issues are at the post design and manufacturing integration level. The capability choices truck has already gone down the road as contracted and wont be reversing. It is the physical fit-out side of the upgrade has a higher cost than expected not the defined capabilities such as CAMM(M), SMART-S et al that are to be fitted.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5434
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New Zealand, Chile sign search and rescue coordination agreement | Naval Today

The link title says it all. The map showing both the NZ and Chilean SAR zones is a bit of an eye-opener.

More generally, since the return to democracy it would be good to see improved ties between NZ and Chile.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5435
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A closer tie to Chile could include participation in the Chilean Antarctic vessel as an option as a southern ocean patrol ship. Length is good. Weight is appropriate for good seakeeping in the southern ocean. Cargo capacity would offer whole of government options to support DOC resupply missions and Antarctic research.

ASMAR has a good record of building a variety of craft including the Icelandic coast guard cutter Thor and the FASSMER OPV 80 vessels.

A series build of two vessels would reduce costs to both parties.

There are trade offs to make as it's not an OPV but the design would offer benefits.

Your thoughts all?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5436
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A closer tie to Chile could include participation in the Chilean Antarctic vessel as an option as a southern ocean patrol ship. Length is good. Weight is appropriate for good seakeeping in the southern ocean. Cargo capacity would offer whole of government options to support DOC resupply missions and Antarctic research.
Australia, Norway, China, Chile, and Germany all have new Antarctic research icebreakers under construction. I think Russia, India have too, while Japans (2009) S.Korea (2009), France (2017?) are pretty new.

IMO NZ should talk to Australia about leasing its icebreaker. Its massive and could do two runs in a season.It will be able to break thicker ice so should be able to operate earlier in the season and later in the season.

Realistically NZ should think about its own icebreaker. Again money has to come from somewhere. Would most likely be cheaper than trying to build ice everything opv's and lift ships.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5437
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Australia, Norway, China, Chile, and Germany all have new Antarctic research icebreakers under construction. I think Russia, India have too, while Japans (2009) S.Korea (2009), France (2017?) are pretty new.

IMO NZ should talk to Australia about leasing its icebreaker. Its massive and could do two runs in a season.It will be able to break thicker ice so should be able to operate earlier in the season and later in the season.

Realistically NZ should think about its own icebreaker. Again money has to come from somewhere. Would most likely be cheaper than trying to build ice everything opv's and lift ships.
Cautionary note. The new AAD vessels is more than just a resupply ship. The additional size is to enable two bases to be resupplied in one voyage to mitigate the risk of issues with one voyage (as was evident when the Aurora had to go off task due to hull damage).

She is also a reserch vessel and is equipped for this. The vessel will be engaged on such operations when not resupplying the bases. The funding for this ship over its life is focused on this.

In short this is a research vessel and not a patrol ship. In fact you do not need a breaker to patrol and a decent ice class vessel will do ..... which NZ have in their new AOR. Both the Ocean Sheild and Ocean Protector are also ice class vessels. If we were to go for a more 'capable' ice class patrol vessel I suggest this will occur when these two ships are replaced as part of the continuous build programme.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #5438
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News item on the IPV Hawea's deployment in Fiji. Whilst it focuses on a particular Chines boat illegally dumping rubbish overboard, it also mentions the training that is happening. Apparently the Solomon Islands are having problems with Vietnamese blue boats thieving fish from their EEZ. Concerns are that Fiji will face this threat as well.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #5439
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News item on the IPV Hawea's deployment in Fiji. Whilst it focuses on a particular Chines boat illegally dumping rubbish overboard, it also mentions the training that is happening. Apparently the Solomon Islands are having problems with Vietnamese blue boats thieving fish from their EEZ. Concerns are that Fiji will face this threat as well.
It is highly likely given the pressure in the SCS that a lot of fishing boats will move out to the wider pacific, from all nations in the SCS. The problems there will spread.

The pacific boats(SEA3036) will keenly find homes.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5440
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Frigate Upgrade starting ?

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It is highly likely given the pressure in the SCS that a lot of fishing boats will move out to the wider pacific, from all nations in the SCS. The problems there will spread.

The pacific boats(SEA3036) will keenly find homes.
Popping down to my local and I spotted Te Mana large as life at the base

"In 2017, Per Navy website :Te Mana will commence preparations for her Frigate Systems Upgrade (FSU). In May she will start her long journey to Esquimalt on the southern tip of Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada. The upgrade will be completed by Lockheed Martin Canada.' Whats cooking ? Budgets gone west , elections ? Buy new save the upgrade , Thoughts Team ?

Last edited by Norm; 1 Week Ago at 04:04 AM. Reason: Added Quote Sorce.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5441
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Popping down to my local and I spotted Te Mana large as life at the base

"In 2017, Per Navy website :Te Mana will commence preparations for her Frigate Systems Upgrade (FSU). In May she will start her long journey to Esquimalt on the southern tip of Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada. The upgrade will be completed by Lockheed Martin Canada.' Whats cooking ? Budgets gone west , elections ? Buy new save the upgrade , Thoughts Team ?
It was never due to start the FSU until this quarter but there was a delay.

What really could be an issue is that there is at present a geo-strategic deterioration that is happening at the worst time for the RNZN viz New Zealand.

Effectively one just Anzac for the next 3 years and no upgraded Anzac that can achieve an operational level of capability until 2021.

I do think it is well time a proper fright of stone cold dread proportions is felt by our political class over defence - it might not be too far off.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5442
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It's been suggested before but maybe a trip to the corner frigate store is needed.

2021 is a long way off and three years before RAN ANZACs are due to retire. So that's not an option.

Apparently HMS Lancaster may be available but none of her systems are similar to current RNZN weapons or subsystems.

Overall a very bad situation for the next three or four years. Definitely poor planning.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5443
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Perhaps a Halifax frigate deployment should have been part of the upgrade package😁 The RNZN likely has better replenishment capabilities for one of our frigates than the RCN at the moment.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5444
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From the MOD's Frigate Systems Upgrade page:

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Platform preliminary design was completed in late 2015. The detailed design is underway and is due for completion in the second quarter of 2017.

The Combat System Trainer, provided under the prime contract by Lockheed Martin was installed at the Devonport Naval Base in January 2017 and training was started in February. The refit of the first ship is planned to start in Victoria, Canada in the third quarter of 2017, and will extend over 10 months, followed by harbour and sea acceptance trials, with the second ship starting its refit approximately 12 months later.

Acceptance of the second ship is due in the last quarter of 2019 when it will depart Canada for New Zealand.
Assuming no further delays or slippages it seems:

The first Frigate (Te Mana) upgrade commences Q3-2017 and will be completed approx. Q3-2018.

The second Frigate (Te Kaha) looks likely to commence it's upgrade Q3/Q4-2018 and will be completed approx. Q3/Q4-2019.

After harbour and sea acceptance trials (presumably a few months?), how long to reach FOC? If one year then for Te Mana that might be during late 2019 (and Te Kaha late 2020)?

Which is all close to 2021 as a project end date or should any of these stages take longer etc. So still think it would be a good idea to lease HMAS Darwin (FFG 04) when she becomes available (aren't her crew transitioning to the AWD's?), as an interim measure to ensure Te Mana's crew retains important skillsets (or should there be slippages with the FSU programme). No doubt the RAN would provide some training assistance minimising costs and negating risks etc.

Convincing Govt/Treasury though, who are more concerned with the bottom line and making do to save $$$, may be a challenge but that's up to the RNZN and isn't beyond them. With recent worldly events in our wider region this may provide their best ever opportunity. And from the pollies international relations point of view it gives them further "options". Win-win
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5445
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Based on the Halifax upgrade program, the NZ frigate program should proceed in a timely matter. Frigate upgrading is the one bright spot for the RCN and hopefully for the RNZN too.
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