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This is a discussion on Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Whilst people are having Christmas fun speculating on Wildcats and Norwegian frigates. http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyre...StandardEs.pdf This document was tabled in the house ...


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Old December 23rd, 2012   #2776
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Whilst people are having Christmas fun speculating on Wildcats and Norwegian frigates.

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyre...StandardEs.pdf

This document was tabled in the house earlier this year - I think I may have whacked it up on here sometime ago. Few would ever read it. It bluntly points out no new money until 2016. Also, no idea given of further money for what we need let alone what we want until after the Output Class Review post the 2014 SOI.

Pages 12 and 13 are basically the DefMin pointing out to Parliament (and indirectly to the Treasury Goons on Hansard no less - so they can also comeback and say I told you so when the defence policy fails) that even on the stripped down funding pathway out to 2035 that they will fall significantly short of meeting capability and policy needs.

Last week in the House the FinMin congratulated the NZDF in their top of the class efforts at saving taxpayers money. Must be the 25 years of constant practice eh.
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Old January 3rd, 2013   #2777
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So what multi role helo do you see the RNZN needing as it only requires a single type ?
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The RNZN is a single type helo navy by necessity, not by choice. The NH90 NFH is too large, expensive and has late delivery issues, and most definitely to big for the OPV both in size and weight (~10 tonnes). That leaves either the AW159 Wildcat or the Romeo. The Wildcat has a similar MTOW to the SH2G(NZ) ~ 6 tonnes and the Romeo ~ 8 tonnes. Then theres the dollars and the current NZG is highly allergic to investing new money into NZDF.The Wildcat is shorter than the Seasprite by 0.5m and its main rotor diameter is 0.6m smaller than the Seasprite. The Romeo is just under 4m longer than the Seasprite and it's rotor diameter is just under 3m wider. It stands at 5.2m high, the Wildcat 3.73m high and the Seasprite 4.5m high. I got this data from Wikipedia and know its not as good a source as others, but it was all nicely tabulated. So the Wildcat is smaller shorter & of similar weight to the Seasprite but it's pommy and all that entails. If RNZN got it, it would need to be capable of operating Mavericks, Hellfires and other US weapons. It would fit on the OPV flight decks even better than the Seasprites. So the Wildcat would be my choice as long as it was capable of being integrated with US weapons and RAN and USN data transfer technologies, without any dramas.
I've been having a think and after reading that the Phillipine Navy is getting three A109 Powers (Makos in NZ Service) I am of the view that, excluding pollies, there is no reason why the RNZN could not operate marinised armoured Makos alongside the Seasprites or the Seasprite replacement. My reasoning for this is that the Mako will fit on the Protector OPV flight decks easily and as Reg has noted 3 Sqn will be flying the Makos, so having three or so airfames on 6 Sqn is no extra issues regarding number of rotary wing types in NZDF as it will still remain at three. Therefore my argument of the Seasprite replacement needing to fit the OPVs is withdrawn.

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Whilst people are having Christmas fun speculating on Wildcats and Norwegian frigates.

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyre...StandardEs.pdf

This document was tabled in the house earlier this year - I think I may have whacked it up on here sometime ago. Few would ever read it. It bluntly points out no new money until 2016. Also, no idea given of further money for what we need let alone what we want until after the Output Class Review post the 2014 SOI.

Pages 12 and 13 are basically the DefMin pointing out to Parliament (and indirectly to the Treasury Goons on Hansard no less - so they can also comeback and say I told you so when the defence policy fails) that even on the stripped down funding pathway out to 2035 that they will fall significantly short of meeting capability and policy needs.

Last week in the House the FinMin congratulated the NZDF in their top of the class efforts at saving taxpayers money. Must be the 25 years of constant practice eh.
I noted in the document that Mr C kindly supplied the link for, that the RNZN have taken the Multibeam Echo Sounders out of Resolution and fitted them to the OPVs. From that report I presume they had more than one and I would also presume that they would have fitted the ships motion sensors at the same time. This equipment is used for hydrographic surveying work so I am wondering if the decision has been made to expand the role of the OPVs to include Littoral Warfare. Manawanui must be close to being withdrawn from service due to old age, so if this is the case, I would then presume that the dive team functions will also transfer to the OPVs. I know it has been discussed here and on the RAN thread about using OPV / OCVs of around Protector Class OPV size for Littoral Warfare amongst other things. So is this move a vision of the future and a good one? Does it mean that the OPVs are the Resolution replacement and another vessel will not be sourced? Is it going to create undue stress and hardship upon the OPVs and their crews?

One final remark. The current NZG has a finite life along with the neoliberalist political, social and economic philosophies and policies it and all NZGs have espoused, clung to and. followed since 1984. The NZ version of neoliberalism is a particularly radical variant. My own view is that given the significant international failures of neoliberal policy in recent years, a seachange will occur in the political landscape of NZ in the future, maybe not in 2014 but by for arguments sake say around 2020. A govt that will take on more responsibilities may happen as the pendulum swings back. How that will affect NZDF is unknown but we can always hope for the best.
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Old January 3rd, 2013   #2778
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How about some of these as OPV replacements in the future, or as extra OPVs if needed sooner. It's been suggested on the RAN thread as possible candidate for the SEA1180 OCV's. They are the Meteoro class OPV from Navantia and are of modular design. http://www.naval-technology.com/cont...nish-navy.html
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Old January 3rd, 2013   #2779
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How about some of these as OPV replacements in the future, or as extra OPVs if needed sooner. It's been suggested on the RAN thread as possible candidate for the SEA1180 OCV's. They are the Meteoro class OPV from Navantia and are of modular design. Navantia Commissions OPV for the Spanish Navy - Naval Technology
Here's a couple more links on the Meteoro Class:

Buques de Acción Marítima (BAM) Class Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology


Looks a very interesting ship, cost approx $US160m each (according to Wiki).

Wonder what the cost per ship would be with a bulk buy of, say 25 ships, for the RAN and the RNZN too?

Cheers,

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Old January 9th, 2013   #2780
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Interesting RNZN history site

For those interested in reading some illuminating NZ Naval history this summer, I'd like to recommend the reports on this website, particularly the excerpts from the Naval Board reports between 1946 - 1965. Rarely do you see such candid remarks on the year-to-year running of a navy. After 1965, the excerpts change to the wider Defence Council reports - much more ministry-speak, and nary a contrary viewpoint on how well the Government is managing.

I hadn't really appreciated just how British the post-war RNZN was. A RNZN officer didn't make it on to the Naval Board until 1957 (Peter Phipps [later Sir], captain of the Bird-class minesweeper Moa during the war, later Rear-Admiral, CNS, CDF). Prior to that the leadership was all-RN (including 70-odd loan officers a year!).

The period from 1959 to 1965 - as the war-surplus vessels tire & the RNZN is forced to downsize in 1965 could just as well be talking about today's Navy (apart from the Reserve Fleet - yes you read that right! - which saved their bacon). The much-fabled ANZUS alliance barely rates a mention until the 1970s (following the British withdrawal from Singapore).

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Old January 31st, 2013   #2781
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Defence Force Rues Handling Of Job Losses | Stuff.co.nz

No surprises in the above - except for this rather alarming one-liner...


Defence boss Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones said yesterday he had big regrets ... And he admitted the Defence Force was now considering downsizing its naval fleet.

What is this the Govt & NZDF's idea of moving resources from the back-end to the front-end!?! What a crock of **** ! NZDF being consciously underfunded for it's future!
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Old January 31st, 2013   #2782
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Defence Force Rues Handling Of Job Losses | Stuff.co.nz

No surprises in the above - except for this rather alarming one-liner...


Defence boss Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones said yesterday he had big regrets ... And he admitted the Defence Force was now considering downsizing its naval fleet.

What is this the Govt & NZDF's idea of moving resources from the back-end to the front-end!?! What a crock of **** ! NZDF being consciously underfunded for it's future!
Don't get me started. Already had a rant on the NZDF thread. I think this'll be a major carbunkle on arse of the 2015 JATF. So what capabilities are they going to shaft. I suppose they may not replace the Endeavour with the JSS type vessel they were planning to. Or maybe pay off two of the IPCs? Or an OPV? Get rid of one or both of the frigates? It's really criminal stupidity when you think about it.
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2783
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Don't get me started. Already had a rant on the NZDF thread. I think this'll be a major carbunkle on arse of the 2015 JATF. So what capabilities are they going to shaft. I suppose they may not replace the Endeavour with the JSS type vessel they were planning to. Or maybe pay off two of the IPCs? Or an OPV? Get rid of one or both of the frigates? It's really criminal stupidity when you think about it.
Yep totally agree - the Govt doesn't give a **** about defence (none has since early 1970's in my book) & NZDF top brass seem to be running around in ever decreasing circles! I'd guess they might be talking 2 x IPV's - certainly hope it's nothing more!

Hopefully 'considering' may be just that, hopefully they'll see sense & at worst tie them up & lock the front-door for a couple of years!

I can just imagine them giving away 2 x IPV's to the islands (who else is likely to want such low-end military vessels!?!) & singing their own praises about how they're helping the Pacific Nations to manage their own natural resources (copious amounts of smarmy spin all over it of course!).

Crikey if Endeavour isn't replaced with a half-pie decent support vessel the whole concept of a JATF is completely f***ed!

Last edited by Gibbo; February 1st, 2013 at 12:24 AM. Reason: after thought & sp
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2784
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Defence Force Rues Handling Of Job Losses | Stuff.co.nz

No surprises in the above - except for this rather alarming one-liner...


Defence boss Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones said yesterday he had big regrets ... And he admitted the Defence Force was now considering downsizing its naval fleet.

What is this the Govt & NZDF's idea of moving resources from the back-end to the front-end!?! What a crock of **** ! NZDF being consciously underfunded for it's future!
Problem was that no one realised (because no one anywhere near the issue had enough common sense) that by bungling the HR side of it would create such poor morale conditions that the front end would walk away as the back end were being chopped. Add into that the bungling of renumeration and housing during the same period, frustration with acquisition programs, over deployment, and of course constant under-funding.

I hold the position that Defence in the wider political and organisational sense has failed over the last 15 years with respect to leadership. Hensley was the decent leader who knew Defence from MOD or NZDF or Politics who had skin in the game.
I have serious doubts over the capability of the new Defence Sec - who is nothing more than a public service line manager promoted through the ranks. I also think that MFAT has also too much of a "sofening" tone politically around defence - that added with the Treasury goons forces the NZDF into the cul de sec it finds itself.

The CDF has regrets - wow - I hope his guilt made him say that and I hope the line about reducing the fleet was a deliberate shock tactic to raise the political temperature. Because if I was him I would be questioning the legacy that is going to be attached to his name as a CDF. They always get the blame in the end.
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2785
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I would tend to think that Manawanui would be the first to go given age / orphan status, crew could man one IPV and that OPV / IPV could perform 90% of the tasks.

It is clear that no one (Defence, National, Treasury) has learned any lessons from the early 1990's when they did something similar under the Peace Dividend. Realistically CDF has to take some of the blame given he commands and he didn't listen to some of the internal voices that appear to have raised alarms about how the NZDF was handling the issue (See AG report).

A thought - Maybe we need to go to fixed term engagements with limited right of early release to overcome this issue.

Last edited by Lucasnz; February 1st, 2013 at 01:08 AM. Reason: An afterthought
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2786
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I would tend to think that Manawanui would be the first to go given age / orphan status, crew could man one IPV and that OPV / IPV could perform 90% of the tasks.

It is clear that no one (Defence, National, Treasury) has learned any lessons from the early 1990's when they did something similar under the Peace Dividend. Realistically CDF has to take some of the blame given he commands and he didn't listen to some of the internal voices that appear to have raised alarms about how the NZDF was handling the issue (See AG report).
The OPV(s) in Littoral Warfare Roles would be about right because they fitted the Multibeam Echo Sounders and ancillary equipment from the Resolution on one or both of the OPVs last year. They could also fit both Tarapunga and Takapu on the OPVs fairly easily. I'd forgotten about Manawanui. With the IPVs why couldn't one be based at Lyttelton and let the RNZNVR Divisions Pegasus (Christchurch) and Toroa (Dunedin) crew them like they did with the Kiwi & Moa. The Reserves would have a ship to train on and they could provide crews for it to do ops like fisheries etc., like we did on Kiwi. Personally I think there needs to be a bit of a clean out at the top, stand fast Chief of Navy (newly appointed) and control of senior appointments needs to be taken away from the State Services Commission.
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2787
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The OPV(s) in Littoral Warfare Roles would be about right because they fitted the Multibeam Echo Sounders and ancillary equipment from the Resolution on one or both of the OPVs last year. They could also fit both Tarapunga and Takapu on the OPVs fairly easily. I'd forgotten about Manawanui. With the IPVs why couldn't one be based at Lyttelton and let the RNZNVR Divisions Pegasus (Christchurch) and Toroa (Dunedin) crew them like they did with the Kiwi & Moa. The Reserves would have a ship to train on and they could provide crews for it to do ops like fisheries etc., like we did on Kiwi. Personally I think there needs to be a bit of a clean out at the top, stand fast Chief of Navy (newly appointed) and control of senior appointments needs to be taken away from the State Services Commission.
True OPV's could do the Littoral Warfare Support although they'd miss the specific diving support functionality that Manawanui offers (primarily excellent 4-point mooring; chamber; & diving bell & davit).

OPV's weight limitations prevent too much new gear being added too.

Are Tarapunga and Takapu at DNB yet?
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2788
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Phew, some activity at last. I was beginning to wonder if my last post was a thread-stopper!

Like everyone else, I'm worried by the CDF's comment. If the fleet gets any smaller they will have to bust Chief of Navy (RA Steer) back down to Commodore! Like Lucasnz, I would assume the CDF would be thinking about deep-sixing the Littoral Warfare Support Vessel and giving it's jobs to the OPVs (as if they don't have enough to do). I can't believe they would consider selling off the brand new IPVs. Better to mothball them. Giving them to the Pacific Forum nations I don't think would work - they struggle to keep their current boats at sea.

The vessels used previously for hydrographic survey were certainly not much better than the OPVs. For example, Monowai & Lachlan both had nothing-special commercial grade engines. Resolution was a better class (& had diesel electric propulsion) but half of it's job was to replace the oceanographic (read sonar) research vessel Tui. I suspect the hours contracted for hydrographic work have been cut back to the point where a dedicated vessel isn't feasible.

Regarding farming out the IPVs to the RNZNVR, I think the IPVs may be a little too much for them to handle (except perhaps in Auckland, where you have a much bigger population to draw on, and nearby support from the naval base). I would like to see the RNZNVR with something though (perhaps more HDML size, like they used to have, that could do basic seamanship training and ceremonial functions).

RA Steer was asking in the last Navy Today for ideas on what to do. One idea that crossed my mind was to make much more use of Wellington harbour. Say, by basing 2 IPVs there regularly. Wellington's waterfront is a prime location - a great opportunity to put the navy right in the face of the politicians. Ideally, Queen's wharf would be the spot. Perhaps move & co-locate HMNZS Olphert to a new facility on the waterfront [1]. Alternatively, Shelly Bay (although sold off) seems little used & vacant at present. They used to operate HDMLs from there.

Chis73

[1] Anybody know why HMNZS Olphert is where it is? It's well back from the waterfront. Maybe it was the old General Staff Headquarters ???
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2789
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A thought - Maybe we need to go to fixed term engagements with limited right of early release to overcome this issue.
Not sure if this would work as it would make people think alot harder before actually joining due to the long term commitment involved especially those on the fence contemplating a military career. Some join the military reluctantly and then find that it is actually for them and go on to become fine productive members while others watch too many movies, join, struggle to adjust and turn out too be sacks and pretty much just take up space, and do we really want people who do not want to be there anymore hanging around dragging others down with them? Thats the problem with the morale in the NZDF now, too many are down and its domino effecting.

As it is service personnel need to provide 3 months notice (earlier under special circumstances) and this does go someway into disuading people from leaving as most civi jobs are not keen on waiting for that long from the word go, therefore service pers sometimes have to take a gamble and may find themselves in limbo for awhile if they decide to get out then look for other employment.

Some are also getting out now before they become 'stuck' because as a unit reaches critical manning it becomes alot harder to gain release in certain areas, only adding to the problem. All service people have a period after release that they can be re-called if any situation warrents, as in quite a serious situation, so I wonder if these capability shortages are considered serious enough?
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Old February 1st, 2013   #2790
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Phew, some activity at last. I was beginning to wonder if my last post was a thread-stopper!

Like everyone else, I'm worried by the CDF's comment. If the fleet gets any smaller they will have to bust Chief of Navy (RA Steer) back down to Commodore! Like Lucasnz, I would assume the CDF would be thinking about deep-sixing the Littoral Warfare Support Vessel and giving it's jobs to the OPVs (as if they don't have enough to do). I can't believe they would consider selling off the brand new IPVs. Better to mothball them. Giving them to the Pacific Forum nations I don't think would work - they struggle to keep their current boats at sea.

The vessels used previously for hydrographic survey were certainly not much better than the OPVs. For example, Monowai & Lachlan both had nothing-special commercial grade engines. Resolution was a better class (& had diesel electric propulsion) but half of it's job was to replace the oceanographic (read sonar) research vessel Tui. I suspect the hours contracted for hydrographic work have been cut back to the point where a dedicated vessel isn't feasible.

Regarding farming out the IPVs to the RNZNVR, I think the IPVs may be a little too much for them to handle (except perhaps in Auckland, where you have a much bigger population to draw on, and nearby support from the naval base). I would like to see the RNZNVR with something though (perhaps more HDML size, like they used to have, that could do basic seamanship training and ceremonial functions).

RA Steer was asking in the last Navy Today for ideas on what to do. One idea that crossed my mind was to make much more use of Wellington harbour. Say, by basing 2 IPVs there regularly. Wellington's waterfront is a prime location - a great opportunity to put the navy right in the face of the politicians. Ideally, Queen's wharf would be the spot. Perhaps move & co-locate HMNZS Olphert to a new facility on the waterfront [1]. Alternatively, Shelly Bay (although sold off) seems little used & vacant at present. They used to operate HDMLs from there.

Chis73

[1] Anybody know why HMNZS Olphert is where it is? It's well back from the waterfront. Maybe it was the old General Staff Headquarters ???
For the reserves why not use simulator training and fly in fly out for actual deployments with multiple crews around the country maning one or two IPVs in conjunction with a regular cadre.
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