This is a discussion on The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by neil
No one would like to see a proper Navy air group on the CVF's more than ...
No one would like to see a proper Navy air group on the CVF's more than me. However other than money, many serious problems remain.
At the moment the Royal Navy has trouble standing up two nine-plane GR.9 squadrons for lack of pilot attack instructors. (hence the consolidated Naval Strike Wing) It is highly unlikely that this situation will change any time soon.
Initially the CVF's will operate with GR.9's.. so the same problems of aircraft availability experienced now with the Invincible's will be carried over to the CVF's.
According to F35 delivery schedules quoted on Beedall's by 2018 the Royal Navy should have somewhere between 60 - 80 F35B's. (The same number as they currently have GR.9's) So for the first couple of years at least the CVF's will defenitely not have air groups up to the strength we would like to see.
The government would have to put up some serious money to change all this in the 2020's..
I agree totally that this is the reality of the present situation.
What I want to see is a real effort made to at least begin to redress the decline in the FAA and rebuild it for the 2020s and beyond. Of course that will cost money but surely the money spent on the CVFs will be largely wasted if it is not done!
If the government waits until the new carriers enter service before it discovers that the deployed airgroups are not much bigger than those that went to sea on the Invincibles three decades previously and then decides to do something about it, the new carriers could spend half (or more) of their service lives with woefully under strength airgroups, in the same way that Illustrious struggled along during more than half of her service in WW2.
I can understand that the RN does not want to make too much noise about this issue until the construction program is so far advanced that it is irreversible as it wants to ensure that the ships are definitely built but the restoration of the FAA needs to begin soon.
There ahs been alot of talk about paying-0ff(decommissioning) the four Type 22 Batch III frigates. But spending this about of money (20 million pounds = to about $40m?) would seem to prclude this dont you think?
Anyway:
HMS Cumberland Rejoins Fleet
London February 21, 2008 - HMS Cumberland was accepted back into the Fleet Scheduling Authority on Friday 8th February 2008. Having successfully completing a 15 month, £20 million refit and regeneration package the main focus been upon improvements to the operating capability through upgrades to the weapon systems and sensors and the propulsion system overhaul. As a result of ‘in project savings’ there was also allowance for upgrading the habitability of crew living and recreational messes resulting in a heightened ‘pride of ownership’ from the entire Ship’s company.
The Fleet Date Inspection is the final formal inspection on completion of the refit period and allows the Ship to make the transition back into operational service. The complex engineering tasks have been achieved ahead of schedule and within budget, which has allowed the Ship’s staff to apply the final polish prior to inspection. Both inspecting officers; Captain Surface Ships, Devonport Flotilla, Captain C Hamp Royal Navy, and Chief Staff Officer (Engineering) to CINCFLEET (CSOE), Captain A D Penny Royal Navy, have served in Cumberland previously and commented on the high materiel state of the Ship and the professionalism and enthusiasm of the Ship’s company. This has been reflected in both the final outcome of the refit and the success of the trials program that have led to this point.
The inspection saw 2 separate teams inspect the entire Ship. Personnel responsible for the respective compartments presented their areas to an exceptionally high standard of materiel readiness and cleanliness. This gave the inspecting teams chance to examine the state of the Ship and to talk to the full range of personnel in every department. The Commanding Officer, Commander P J Sparkes Royal Navy, the officers and Ship’s company of HMS Cumberland now look forward to the demanding program of Operational Sea Training in preparations for future Operations.
Captain Hamp said:
"I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to HMS Cumberland today. The Ship was presented to a very high standard by a motivated and enthusiastic Ship’s company which reflects the firm Command Direction, sound management and strong team spirit that has been generated through the Upkeep period. There is a genuine sense of pride in the Upkeep and Capability upgrades achieved. It is clear that Cumberland has received a very satisfactory Upkeep period and that she is ready for the forthcoming challenge of preparing for and completing Operational Training.
Definitively hang on to those end of the 80s large FFGs. With no replacement in sight it would be outlandish to retire them even if some million pounds could be retrieved by selling them to Brazil (I imagine Chile has finished its collection of Ex European FFGs...)
* Hope this wasn't posted already I didn't see it anywhere. Can somebody tell me the basic defensive weapons that are planned or might be used for these ships? Anti-air & anti-ship
thanks http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
Navy's aircraft carriers face delay
By Sylvia Pfeifer, Defence Industries Correspondent
Published: February 21 2008 02:00 | Last updated: February 21 2008 02:00
The construction of the Royal Navy's two aircraft carriers could be delayed by up to 12 months as the Ministry of Defence faces an estimated budget shortfall of £2bn over the next three years.
One of the recommendations presented to senior defence officials and service chiefs yesterday was that the MoD agree a manufacturing contract with the industry alliance building the ships within weeks but delay construction.
If the government goes ahead with the plan, it would set alarm bells ringing in Britain's shipyards. The yards have been hiring in anticipation of the £4bn project and could have to lay off key workers.
Sources close to the talks believe that by agreeing the contract the MoD would be able to limit any political fallout from subsequent delays.
Signing the contract now would also allow the shipbuilding joint venture between BAE Systems and VT Group to go ahead. The two companies have been poised to agree the project for several weeks but have been waiting for the green light from government.
BAE said: "Negotiations regarding the proposed joint venture with VT are at an advanced stage . . . The signature of the joint venture agreements is also dependent upon the signature of contracts for the aircraft carriers and we are working closely with the MoD to ensure that these are placed as soon as possible."
I am not happy at all with the current budget a £2bn short fall is not a massive amount they should just increase the budget by a bit and get the carriers built. The Americans have from what i know already started cutting steal for the Gerald R. Ford which is due to be in service by 2015 so are new carriers have not got a chance of being in service by 2015, and to be honest i wouldn't be surprised if they were canceled in the end.
I am not happy at all with the current budget a £2bn short fall is not a massive amount they should just increase the budget by a bit and get the carriers built. The Americans have from what i know already started cutting steal for the Gerald R. Ford which is due to be in service by 2015 so are new carriers have not got a chance of being in service by 2015, and to be honest i wouldn't be surprised if they were canceled in the end.
That would be really cruel but would make political sense; First, deep cuts to RN to fund new carriers. Second step is to discover that there's no money to actually have air wings on said carriers and there's no sufficient escorts for them even if by some miracle there's money for air wings.. Third step is to cancel the CV(F)'s altogether but not to repair damage done for the rest of the RN.
Every year for the last several there have been cuts. I don't have any idea why anyone thinks this would be the end.
Analysts have been warning for years there would only be 6 Type 45s. Guess what, they were probably right.
Analysts have been warning for years there would be a reduction in Astute class submarines built. Guess what, they were probably right.
Analysts have been warning for years the Type 22s would be probably be retired early. Guess what, they were probably right.
Why would anyone believe this short list is the end of cuts? The CVF is probably next. They play the same game every year, they float a list of cuts, only cut one thing on the list, then float another list the next year, and repeat the process... every year. Soon everything that has been on the list will be cut, which is why the CVF is on the list but has been "delayed", after all, it needs to still be on the list when it is time for it to be cut.
That French espionage probably didn't help the CVF program.
Anyone remember that report in the Sunday Times (iirc) about the navy being cut by half. It was about two years ago and they expected it in three months. Guess what, it never happened.
The problem is that the MOD like to carry out lots of paper exercises about 'what ifs' (especially where money is concerned). Then these things get leaked to the press, and the excrement hits the air conditioning and doom and gloom is predicted whilst these 'leaked reports' then fuel analysts theorys about the end of the Royal Navy.
When I see something concrete come out of the MOD, then i will worry.
Maybe they mean the fact the our neighbors across the narrow channel, tried to buy in on the idea & have a 3rd ship built, but as is the usual, the French will want to change the layout to suit say the Rafel....
The Secret Service found "French looking" bugs in Lord Drayson's offices in the MoD and parliarment during a regular security check.
revenge for CDG
to get back for spying on their carrier program.
Galran you can chose to disagree with Gorden Brown in regards to the carriers as he has vowed that no program will be cut and there may be delay [unlikely as Brown would have even more trouble from the ex admarials and officers who talk to the papers]. also the contracts seem to indicate oppaist to these mythical cuts which have been rumored from the day this thread opened. but what have seen the start of MARS the signing of the CVF the contracts for CVF. upgrade for Frigerts, LPH. launch of T45 and comments by the defense minster that 8 T45 are on the books and lastly long leads 7 Astute class vessels. I will admit that C1,C2,C3 program needs to defined but i believe it will be sorted out there is plenty of time. I would be more worried about your own back yard. The huge price increase of the LCS than worrying about little old england
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Colin McRae 1961-2007 true champion
Unofficial Royal navy cheering section
Last edited by harryriedl; February 24th, 2008 at 05:50 AM.
* Hope this wasn't posted already I didn't see it anywhere. Can somebody tell me the basic defensive weapons that are planned or might be used for these ships? Anti-air & anti-ship
thanks http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
Navy's aircraft carriers face delay
By Sylvia Pfeifer, Defence Industries Correspondent
Published: February 21 2008 02:00 | Last updated: February 21 2008 02:00
The construction of the Royal Navy's two aircraft carriers could be delayed by up to 12 months as the Ministry of Defence faces an estimated budget shortfall of £2bn over the next three years.
One of the recommendations presented to senior defence officials and service chiefs yesterday was that the MoD agree a manufacturing contract with the industry alliance building the ships within weeks but delay construction.
If the government goes ahead with the plan, it would set alarm bells ringing in Britain's shipyards. The yards have been hiring in anticipation of the £4bn project and could have to lay off key workers.
Sources close to the talks believe that by agreeing the contract the MoD would be able to limit any political fallout from subsequent delays.
Signing the contract now would also allow the shipbuilding joint venture between BAE Systems and VT Group to go ahead. The two companies have been poised to agree the project for several weeks but have been waiting for the green light from government.
BAE said: "Negotiations regarding the proposed joint venture with VT are at an advanced stage . . . The signature of the joint venture agreements is also dependent upon the signature of contracts for the aircraft carriers and we are working closely with the MoD to ensure that these are placed as soon as possible."
Additional reporting by Alex Barker
please put a link in the arcticial as i don't know where its from and its verasitiy.
________________
Colin McRae 1961-2007 true champion
Unofficial Royal navy cheering section
Very strange this story on spying, French newspapers haven't mentioned anything while at least some papers love to underline mishaps with the security apparatus and the current government's actions.
I think the CVFs are way too visible and symbolic to be cut in any way, but the RN will suffer in all the other domains because of financing these behemoths. T45s, new FFGs, number of Astute SSNs. Those programmes are lower visibility ones for the general public.
Same thing in France, a 2nd carrier will certainly somehow be built, especially for prestige reasons. But several other programmes will suffer. By the way a defence review has been expected for some time now but still no news.
