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Royal Navy Analysis

This is a discussion on Royal Navy Analysis within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I put this together some three weeks ago: RN Force Structure, Committments, Operations and Intervention/Contingency Plans Much has been written ...


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Old September 4th, 2005   #1
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Royal Navy Analysis

I put this together some three weeks ago:

RN Force Structure, Committments, Operations and Intervention/Contingency Plans

Much has been written about the UK's Royal Navy draw-down.* In particular dropping from 32 Destroyers/Frigates to 25. This is an attempt to give a brief analysis of its effect on force stucture and operations.

*http://navy-matters.beedall.com/ed200804.htm


Force Structure for 2006

MAJOR UNITS ONLY
(Full Load Displacement where used is stated thus "1000fl")
<UK>*
CARRIERS
0+2 CVF Queen Elizabeth class(to replace the two below in 2012 and 2015)
2 CVH Invincible class (Invincible paid-off August 2005, Ark Royal is in a major refit until end of 2006)
DESTROYERS
0+8 Type 45 class 7400fl SAMPSON/Sylver VLS/ASTER (to replace the Type 42)
8 Type 42 class 4300-4800fl Sea Dart (to decommission from 2009-2013)
FRIGATES
4 Type 22 4900fl
13 Type 23 4300fl
SUBMARINES
0+6 SSN Astute class(to replace some of those below)
9 SSN Trafalger/Swiftsure class (to drawdown to eight by 2008 )
4 SSBN Vanguard class
AMPHIBIOUS
1 LPH Ocean class
1 AGH Argus class
2 LPD Albion class
4 LSD Largs Bay class
MINE WARFARE
8 MHC Sandown class
8 MCM Hunt class
Replenishment
2 AO Wave class
1 AO Oakleaf class (Will retire 2010)
3 AO Leaf class (Will retire 2009-2010)
2 AO Rover class (Will retire 2009-2010)
2 AOR Victoria class
2 AE Fort Grange
1 ARS Diligence(not a replenishment ship but its only major repair and salvage unit)

*Entry for RN from a World Navies Listing compiled by this author (complete list available on request)

Committments, Standing Tasks & Enduring Ops

2004
1. SNMG-1 (was STANAVFORLANT the NATO Squadron-Atlantic(Withdrawn))
2. SNMG-2 (was STANNAVFORMED the NATO Squadron- Mediterranean)
3. Fleet Ready Escort- FRE (UK Patrol)
4. Atlantic Patrol Task- North
5. Pacific Patrol Task- South
6. Arabian Gulf
7. Indian Ocean/ Far East

Th UK is reducing from seven full-time committments/operations in 2004 involving one Destroyer/Frigate each to fewer in number. With some of those tasks realigned. The RN has withdrawn from the NATO squadron Atlantic The Arabian Gulf & IO/FE comittment is to be combined into one ship or so it appears. APT-N is to be reduced from July-October of each year. The NATO Squadron MED, APT-S and the FRE ship tasks will remain unchanged for now. The MED may also at some point be reduced from a year-round task.

Intervention/Contingency Plans

In addition the RN will provide units for three simultaneous contingency taskings* or one Medium Scale Intervention. Carrier and Amphibious Task Groups are formed as neccessary around the operational carrier and LPH Ocean.

The below three scenarios were made in July 2004 as to the number of Destroyers/Frigates needed to support the underlying assumptions . Three or four D/F's are normally necessary to support each enduring op & standing committment. With deployment reductions this may be somewhat relaxed. Example- The APT-N ship is only on station 3-4 months a year rather than a unit deployed year-round. :

#1
2 Two Enduring Medium Scale Operations
2 Two Enduring Small Scale Operations
2 Two Small Scale Intervention
1 One Standing Committment
9 **Factors
16 Total Destroyers/Frigates

#2
2 Two Enduring Medium Scale Operations
2 Two Enduring Small Scale Operations
1 Standing Committment
9 Medium Scale Intervention
11 **Factors
25 Total Destroyers/Frigates(As many as eight of these will be in "Reduced Support Status".)*

#3
12 One Large Scale Operation
1 Standing Committment
4 **Factors
17 Total Destroyers/Frigates

It appears that a modified scenario #2 has been decided on:

#2
2 Enduring medium scale op(Gulf/IO/FE & APT-S)
2 Enduring small scale op(APT-N & MED)
1 Standing committment(FRE)
9 Medium scale intervention
11 **Factors(including ships in refit, post-deployed, training and pre-depoyment work-up)
25 Total

A large scale operation would most likely take many years for the RN to recover from as regards operational tempo.

*Which would be quite similar to scenario #1 seeing as how as many as eight D/F are usually in RSS. Whether, in this authors opinion, that is an official or unofficial practice is a moot point.

RSS definition: "Under the revised arrangements, all ships have been given either normal support status or reduced support status. Ships with reduced support status will, generally, only receive support for defects affecting health and safety and environmental safety. The intention is to preserve a core capability to deploy amedium scale task group for the Joint Rapid Reaction Force and to ensure that priority peacetime tasks remain supported and that non-essential activity is removed from the Royal Navy’s programme. "

http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/nao_reports/05-06/050672.pdf


**The factors include the number of units required in the force structure to allow generation of the deployed force and the units held to rotate the enduring operations.


RFA-Replenishment Ships

More should be said about these ships as World-Wide Ops/Interventions are unsustainable without them.

The oilers of the Rover and Leaf classes are to be replaced by the new MARS* program and the Sir class LST's by the four new Largs Bay class LPD/LSD. Argus can also be used to augment amphibious forces.

Designation/Name/ In-service Date/Forecast Decommissioning Date

Aviation Training and Primary Casualty Reception Ship
AGH Argus 1988 2020

Repair Ship
ARS Diligence 1984 2014

Oilers
AO- Grey Rover 1970 2006
AO- Gold Rover 1974 2009
AO- Black Rover 1974 2010
AO- Oakleaf 1986 2010
AO- Brambleleaf 1980 2009
AO- Orangeleaf 1984 2009
AO- Bayleaf 1982 2010
AO- Wave Knight 2003 2028
AO- Wave Ruler 2003 2028

Ammunition, Food and Stores Ships
AE- Fort Rosalie 1978 2013
AE- Fort Austin 1979 2014

Replenishment Oilers
AOR Fort George 1994 2019
AOR Fort Victoria 1994 2019

Landing Ship Tank
LST Sir Bedivere 1967 2011
LST Sir Tristram 1967 2006
LST Sir Galahad 1987 2006

*Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability (MARS)

Decommissioning dates for Destroyers/Frigates

Ship/ Planned decommissioning date

Type 42 Batch 2 destroyers:


HMS Exeter 2009
HMS Southampton 2010
HMS Nottingham
2012
HMS Liverpool 2009


Type 42 Batch 3 destroyers:
HMS Manchester 2011
HMS Gloucester 2011
HMS Edinburgh 2013
HMS York 2012


Type 22 frigates:


HMS Cornwall 2015
HMS Cumberland 2017
HMS Campbeltown
2017
HMS Chatham
2018

Type 23 frigates:

HMS Argyll 2019
HMS Lancaster 2019
HMS Iron Duke 2020
HMS Monmouth 2021
HMS Montrose 2021
HMS Westminster 2021
HMS Northumberland 2022
HMS Richmond 2022
HMS Somerset 2023
HMS Sutherland 2025
HMS Kent 2028
HMS Portland 2028
HMS St. Albans 2029

Decommissioning Dates for Submarines:
Mr. Ingram [holding answer 20 July 2005]: No decisions have been taken on the out of service dates (OSDs) for the Royal Navy's Vanguard class SSBNs, nor about any potential replacement. The current planned OSDs for the Swiftsure and Trafalgar class SSNs are detailed as follows:

Swiftsure class SSNs:

2008 HMS Superb
2010 HMS Sceptre

Trafalgar class SSNs:

2008 HMS Trafalgar
2011 HMS Turbulent
2013 HMS Tireless
2015 HMS Torbay
2017 HMS Trenchant
2019 HMS Talent
2022 HMS Triumph

The new Astute class SSNs will progressively supersede the current capability. The first of class is planned to enter service in 2009.

Current duties:

13 Jul 2005

Maritime Forces
Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the (a) Royal Navy and (b) Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels which have been given the reduced support status referred to in paragraph 2.9 of the National Audit Office report on military readiness. [9695]

Mr. Ingram [holding answer 7 July 2005]: The process of designating ships to receive the reduced level of support referred to by the National Audit Office enables the Royal Navy to maintain its ability to mount a medium scale operation at short notice and maximise its ability to undertake priority peacetime tasks. The Royal Navy ships placed on reduced support status are as follows:


HMS Invincible CVH-decom
HMS Ark Royal CVH-refit
HMS Albion LPD
HMS Cardiff-decom
HMS Exeter
HMS Liverpool
HMS Cumberland
HMS Grafton(Training-Summer leave-in September will be undergoing a period of planned maintenance before sailing once again in support of trainee navigating officers.)
HMS Marlborough-decom
HMS Monmouth
HMS Richmond
HMS St. Albans
HMS Sutherland
HMS Atherstone-MCM
HMS Brecon MCM-decom
HMS Cottesmore MCM-decom
HMS Dulverton MCM-decom
HMS Middleton-MCM
HMS Pembroke-MHC
HMS Penzance-MHC
HMS Ramsey-MHC
HMS Shoreham-MHC
HMS Walney-MHC
HMS Leeds Castle OPV-decom
No RFA ships are on reduced support status.


Active ships in RSS:

HMS Exeter
HMS Liverpool(post-deployed August 4th)
HMS Cumberland(deployed August 5th)
HMS Monmouth
HMS St. Albans
HMS Sutherland

HMS Richmond RSS in refit.





Ships in a low-state of readiness but not RSS:

Ships in refit:

HMS Northumberland(now coming out)
HMS Edinburgh
HMS Cornwall
HMS Kent(now coming out)


Post-deployed:
HMS Gloucester
HMS Manchester


Pre-deployment work-up:
HMS Southhampton(APTN-S)


Training:
Iron Duke


None of the above 8 ships are listed in RSS or a High-state of readiness.

That leaves as of July 21:

UK Maritime Security: HMS Montrose

Mediterranean (Nato's Standing NRF Maritime Group 2): HMS Somerset(post-deployed August 3rd)(Relief?)

Atlantic Patrol Task (South): HMS Portland(Southhampton to relieve early September)

Gulf: HMS Argyll(Campbelltown Suez August 3 approx)

Atlantic Patrol Task (North): HMS Liverpool(RSS)(post-deployed August 4th)(Cumberland deployed August 5th)

Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean: HMS York (double assigned as JRRF unit)

Plus


The following major Royal Navy warships are available to the Joint Rapid Reaction Force at High or Very High Readiness for contingent operations:

HMS Illustrious CVH
HMS Ocean LPD
HMS Albion-(RSS)

HMS Bulwark-(soon to be)
HMS Cumberland- (RSS)(Deployed August 5th)
HMS Campbeltown- deployed Gulf
HMS Chatham-post-deployed
HMS Nottingham-post-deployed
HMS York(see above)
HMS Exeter-(RSS)
HMS Westminster- post-refit Training
HMS Sutherland-(RSS)
HMS St. Albans-(RSS)
HMS Monmouth-(RSS)
HMS Lancaster-Training


Where a destroyer/frigate duties are not mentioned assume for the most part minor upkeep and training are being done.

Many ships are enjoying Summer Leave at this time.


References:

Force Structure:

various but in particular Combat Fleets 2005-2006 and www.royalnavy.mod.uk

Committments, Operations and Intervention/Contingency Plans:

March 2005 House of Commons Report

http://www.parliament.the-stationery...ce/45/4507.htm


July 2004 White Paper

www.mod.uk/linked_files/issues/security/cm6269/cm6269.pdf

July 2005 White Paper

www.mod.uk/linked_files/issues/security/cm6616.pdf


Decommissioning dates and other info:

Hansard http://www.parliament.uk/index.cfm
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Old September 4th, 2005   #2
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickusn
I put this together some three weeks ago:

RN Force Structure, Committments, Operations and Intervention/Contingency Plans

Much has been written about the UK's Royal Navy draw-down.* In particular dropping from 32 Destroyers/Frigates to 25. This is an attempt to give a brief analysis of its effect on force stucture and operations.

*http://navy-matters.beedall.com/ed200804.htm


Force Structure for 2006

MAJOR UNITS ONLY
(Full Load Displacement where used is stated thus "1000fl")
<UK>*
CARRIERS
0+2 CVF Queen Elizabeth class(to replace the two below in 2012 and 2015)
2 CVH Invincible class (Invincible paid-off August 2005, Ark Royal is in a major refit until end of 2006)
DESTROYERS
0+8 Type 45 class 7400fl SAMPSON/Sylver VLS/ASTER (to replace the Type 42)
8 Type 42 class 4300-4800fl Sea Dart (to decommission from 2009-2013)
FRIGATES
4 Type 22 4900fl
13 Type 23 4300fl
SUBMARINES
0+6 SSN Astute class(to replace some of those below)
9 SSN Trafalger/Swiftsure class (to drawdown to eight by 2008 )
4 SSBN Vanguard class
AMPHIBIOUS
1 LPH Ocean class
1 AGH Argus class
2 LPD Albion class
4 LSD Largs Bay class
MINE WARFARE
8 MHC Sandown class
8 MCM Hunt class
Replenishment
2 AO Wave class
1 AO Oakleaf class (Will retire 2010)
3 AO Leaf class (Will retire 2009-2010)
2 AO Rover class (Will retire 2009-2010)
2 AOR Victoria class
2 AE Fort Grange
1 ARS Diligence(not a replenishment ship but its only major repair and salvage unit)

*Entry for RN from a World Navies Listing compiled by this author (complete list available on request)

Committments, Standing Tasks & Enduring Ops

2004
1. SNMG-1 (was STANAVFORLANT the NATO Squadron-Atlantic(Withdrawn))
2. SNMG-2 (was STANNAVFORMED the NATO Squadron- Mediterranean)
3. Fleet Ready Escort- FRE (UK Patrol)
4. Atlantic Patrol Task- North
5. Pacific Patrol Task- South
6. Arabian Gulf
7. Indian Ocean/ Far East

Th UK is reducing from seven full-time committments/operations in 2004 involving one Destroyer/Frigate each to fewer in number. With some of those tasks realigned. The RN has withdrawn from the NATO squadron Atlantic The Arabian Gulf & IO/FE comittment is to be combined into one ship or so it appears. APT-N is to be reduced from July-October of each year. The NATO Squadron MED, APT-S and the FRE ship tasks will remain unchanged for now. The MED may also at some point be reduced from a year-round task.

Intervention/Contingency Plans

In addition the RN will provide units for three simultaneous contingency taskings* or one Medium Scale Intervention. Carrier and Amphibious Task Groups are formed as neccessary around the operational carrier and LPH Ocean.

The below three scenarios were made in July 2004 as to the number of Destroyers/Frigates needed to support the underlying assumptions . Three or four D/F's are normally necessary to support each enduring op & standing committment. With deployment reductions this may be somewhat relaxed. Example- The APT-N ship is only on station 3-4 months a year rather than a unit deployed year-round. :

#1
2 Two Enduring Medium Scale Operations
2 Two Enduring Small Scale Operations
2 Two Small Scale Intervention
1 One Standing Committment
9 **Factors
16 Total Destroyers/Frigates

#2
2 Two Enduring Medium Scale Operations
2 Two Enduring Small Scale Operations
1 Standing Committment
9 Medium Scale Intervention
11 **Factors
25 Total Destroyers/Frigates(As many as eight of these will be in "Reduced Support Status".)*

#3
12 One Large Scale Operation
1 Standing Committment
4 **Factors
17 Total Destroyers/Frigates

It appears that a modified scenario #2 has been decided on:

#2
2 Enduring medium scale op(Gulf/IO/FE & APT-S)
2 Enduring small scale op(APT-N & MED)
1 Standing committment(FRE)
9 Medium scale intervention
11 **Factors(including ships in refit, post-deployed, training and pre-depoyment work-up)
25 Total

A large scale operation would most likely take many years for the RN to recover from as regards operational tempo.

*Which would be quite similar to scenario #1 seeing as how as many as eight D/F are usually in RSS. Whether, in this authors opinion, that is an official or unofficial practice is a moot point.

RSS definition: "Under the revised arrangements, all ships have been given either normal support status or reduced support status. Ships with reduced support status will, generally, only receive support for defects affecting health and safety and environmental safety. The intention is to preserve a core capability to deploy amedium scale task group for the Joint Rapid Reaction Force and to ensure that priority peacetime tasks remain supported and that non-essential activity is removed from the Royal Navy’s programme. "

http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/nao_reports/05-06/050672.pdf


**The factors include the number of units required in the force structure to allow generation of the deployed force and the units held to rotate the enduring operations.


RFA-Replenishment Ships

More should be said about these ships as World-Wide Ops/Interventions are unsustainable without them.

The oilers of the Rover and Leaf classes are to be replaced by the new MARS* program and the Sir class LST's by the four new Largs Bay class LPD/LSD. Argus can also be used to augment amphibious forces.

Designation/Name/ In-service Date/Forecast Decommissioning Date

Aviation Training and Primary Casualty Reception Ship
AGH Argus 1988 2020

Repair Ship
ARS Diligence 1984 2014

Oilers
AO- Grey Rover 1970 2006
AO- Gold Rover 1974 2009
AO- Black Rover 1974 2010
AO- Oakleaf 1986 2010
AO- Brambleleaf 1980 2009
AO- Orangeleaf 1984 2009
AO- Bayleaf 1982 2010
AO- Wave Knight 2003 2028
AO- Wave Ruler 2003 2028

Ammunition, Food and Stores Ships
AE- Fort Rosalie 1978 2013
AE- Fort Austin 1979 2014

Replenishment Oilers
AOR Fort George 1994 2019
AOR Fort Victoria 1994 2019

Landing Ship Tank
LST Sir Bedivere 1967 2011
LST Sir Tristram 1967 2006
LST Sir Galahad 1987 2006

*Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability (MARS)

Decommissioning dates for Destroyers/Frigates

Ship/ Planned decommissioning date

Type 42 Batch 2 destroyers:


HMS Exeter 2009
HMS Southampton 2010
HMS Nottingham
2012
HMS Liverpool 2009


Type 42 Batch 3 destroyers:
HMS Manchester 2011
HMS Gloucester 2011
HMS Edinburgh 2013
HMS York 2012


Type 22 frigates:


HMS Cornwall 2015
HMS Cumberland 2017
HMS Campbeltown
2017
HMS Chatham
2018

Type 23 frigates:

HMS Argyll 2019
HMS Lancaster 2019
HMS Iron Duke 2020
HMS Monmouth 2021
HMS Montrose 2021
HMS Westminster 2021
HMS Northumberland 2022
HMS Richmond 2022
HMS Somerset 2023
HMS Sutherland 2025
HMS Kent 2028
HMS Portland 2028
HMS St. Albans 2029

Decommissioning Dates for Submarines:
Mr. Ingram [holding answer 20 July 2005]: No decisions have been taken on the out of service dates (OSDs) for the Royal Navy's Vanguard class SSBNs, nor about any potential replacement. The current planned OSDs for the Swiftsure and Trafalgar class SSNs are detailed as follows:

Swiftsure class SSNs:

2008 HMS Superb
2010 HMS Sceptre

Trafalgar class SSNs:

2008 HMS Trafalgar
2011 HMS Turbulent
2013 HMS Tireless
2015 HMS Torbay
2017 HMS Trenchant
2019 HMS Talent
2022 HMS Triumph

The new Astute class SSNs will progressively supersede the current capability. The first of class is planned to enter service in 2009.

Current duties:

13 Jul 2005

Maritime Forces
Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the (a) Royal Navy and (b) Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels which have been given the reduced support status referred to in paragraph 2.9 of the National Audit Office report on military readiness. [9695]

Mr. Ingram [holding answer 7 July 2005]: The process of designating ships to receive the reduced level of support referred to by the National Audit Office enables the Royal Navy to maintain its ability to mount a medium scale operation at short notice and maximise its ability to undertake priority peacetime tasks. The Royal Navy ships placed on reduced support status are as follows:


HMS Invincible CVH-decom
HMS Ark Royal CVH-refit
HMS Albion LPD
HMS Cardiff-decom
HMS Exeter
HMS Liverpool
HMS Cumberland
HMS Grafton(Training-Summer leave-in September will be undergoing a period of planned maintenance before sailing once again in support of trainee navigating officers.)
HMS Marlborough-decom
HMS Monmouth
HMS Richmond
HMS St. Albans
HMS Sutherland
HMS Atherstone-MCM
HMS Brecon MCM-decom
HMS Cottesmore MCM-decom
HMS Dulverton MCM-decom
HMS Middleton-MCM
HMS Pembroke-MHC
HMS Penzance-MHC
HMS Ramsey-MHC
HMS Shoreham-MHC
HMS Walney-MHC
HMS Leeds Castle OPV-decom
No RFA ships are on reduced support status.


Active ships in RSS:

HMS Exeter
HMS Liverpool(post-deployed August 4th)
HMS Cumberland(deployed August 5th)
HMS Monmouth
HMS St. Albans
HMS Sutherland

HMS Richmond RSS in refit.





Ships in a low-state of readiness but not RSS:

Ships in refit:

HMS Northumberland(now coming out)
HMS Edinburgh
HMS Cornwall
HMS Kent(now coming out)


Post-deployed:
HMS Gloucester
HMS Manchester


Pre-deployment work-up:
HMS Southhampton(APTN-S)


Training:
Iron Duke


None of the above 8 ships are listed in RSS or a High-state of readiness.

That leaves as of July 21:

UK Maritime Security: HMS Montrose

Mediterranean (Nato's Standing NRF Maritime Group 2): HMS Somerset(post-deployed August 3rd)(Relief?)

Atlantic Patrol Task (South): HMS Portland(Southhampton to relieve early September)

Gulf: HMS Argyll(Campbelltown Suez August 3 approx)

Atlantic Patrol Task (North): HMS Liverpool(RSS)(post-deployed August 4th)(Cumberland deployed August 5th)

Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean: HMS York (double assigned as JRRF unit)

Plus


The following major Royal Navy warships are available to the Joint Rapid Reaction Force at High or Very High Readiness for contingent operations:

HMS Illustrious CVH
HMS Ocean LPD
HMS Albion-(RSS)

HMS Bulwark-(soon to be)
HMS Cumberland- (RSS)(Deployed August 5th)
HMS Campbeltown- deployed Gulf
HMS Chatham-post-deployed
HMS Nottingham-post-deployed
HMS York(see above)
HMS Exeter-(RSS)
HMS Westminster- post-refit Training
HMS Sutherland-(RSS)
HMS St. Albans-(RSS)
HMS Monmouth-(RSS)
HMS Lancaster-Training


Where a destroyer/frigate duties are not mentioned assume for the most part minor upkeep and training are being done.

Many ships are enjoying Summer Leave at this time.


References:

Force Structure:

various but in particular Combat Fleets 2005-2006 and www.royalnavy.mod.uk

Committments, Operations and Intervention/Contingency Plans:

March 2005 House of Commons Report

http://www.parliament.the-stationery...ce/45/4507.htm


July 2004 White Paper

www.mod.uk/linked_files/issues/security/cm6269/cm6269.pdf

July 2005 White Paper

www.mod.uk/linked_files/issues/security/cm6616.pdf


Decommissioning dates and other info:

Hansard http://www.parliament.uk/index.cfm
great work,but i find it very surprising that they dont have any conventional submarines would be pretty usefull in all those islands and shallow waters because of their small,has it always been royal navies policy not to operate any ssk's.do they have any ssk project under development
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Old September 4th, 2005   #3
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

The RN operated 10 Oberon SSK's in 1990 plus 4 Upholder SSK's commissioned in the early 1990's.

All were decommissioned by the end of 1994.

The four Upholders were subsquently bought by Canada.

All the Oberons operated by other navies have been decommissioned.

The RN has always operated world-wide in addition to Home Defense responsibilities.

With the end of the Cold-war Home Defense became less of a priority or even much of a concern.

Ergo the SSK's were deemed superfluous(along with a third of the RN escort force) and decommissioned .
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Old September 5th, 2005   #4
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

Those two aircraft carriers are going to be so much better than the current three, they are meant to carry more and better aircraft so i consider that a considerable imporvement. The aircraft carriers they have now would recieve an absolute hiding against the planned ones currently in the construction process.
It seems like Britian is going for the smaller better equiped force, which isn't so bad, which I don't have a problem with. I think the US may end up having to do this. Why can't they do that in NZ, have two good as corvettes (such as visby with S2A) instead of these bulky unarmed anzacs we have now?
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Old September 5th, 2005   #5
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by nz enthusiast
It seems like Britian is going for the smaller better equiped force, which isn't so bad, which I don't have a problem with. I think the US may end up having to do this. Why can't they do that in NZ, have two good as corvettes (such as visby with S2A) instead of these bulky unarmed anzacs we have now?
EEZ patrol & protection & search & rescue are how NZ's ANZACS will spend the VAST majority of their time. This requires numbers not individual capability. The NZ govt seriously doesn't like thinking about & preparing for war.
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Old September 6th, 2005   #6
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

THe CVF would essentially be doubling our Capabities, the Current Invincibal Class has a crew of 1,000 Includeing 350 Air crew. The CVF has the capacity to house 1200 crew including 600 Aircrew. The CVF will have 24 Joint combat AC and would be able to carry out 420 sorties over five days Night and Day, with a peak capacity of 100 JCA Sorties / 24 hours. This Island has more capabilities then most AF's around the world.
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Old September 6th, 2005   #7
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by adsH
THe CVF would essentially be doubling our Capabities, the Current Invincibal Class has a crew of 1,000 Includeing 350 Air crew. The CVF has the capacity to house 1200 crew including 600 Aircrew. The CVF will have 24 Joint combat AC and would be able to carry out 420 sorties over five days Night and Day, with a peak capacity of 100 JCA Sorties / 24 hours. This Island has more capabilities then most AF's around the world.
does the cvf also have the ability to carry an expeditionary force and hospital facilities similiar to the italian cavour class(they would be very usefull capabilities) also i believe uk should have sticked to conventional design which is proven instead of the twin island design(in the even of combat or battle damage it may effect the communciations betwean the two set of crews ).
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Old September 11th, 2005   #8
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

The CVF and American CVY future carriers are both more efficient than existing designs. Although the British seem like they are losing their naval foothold in the world.
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Old December 6th, 2005   #9
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

I share your concern Defcon 6. Any drop in duties is a drop in foothold (is there such a thing on water?), but it is also a drop in training and readiness. maybe this will be made up for by increased intervention? One off amphib and naval air actions could more than keep the RN busy, should foriegn policy continue to go that route.
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Old December 7th, 2005   #10
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Hello,

Great article, and a sad one. I worry about the RN's abilities, not that we need to build more top line warships, I do not think we do, I argue 24 modern destroyers/heavy Frigates with 2 medium CV's is enough for war fighting. However, we are loosing far to many sub's, to drop below 10 SSN's is a mistake.

We need to a force of long range vessels, light in weight, light in armament (meduim gun, maybe a ligthweight SAM system like a "RAM" class, light autocannon and provision for a light helo (lynx size) to help patrol and police the worlds oceans, they can also have a secondary escort role/surveillance role. I idea of a light Frigate or Corvette is not new, I just think we need to build some. Still, I can not help but think that the absolute implosion of the Russian navy and the fact the next navel war will likely be about Taiwan or the Indian ocean, a third to half to globe away has made the RN an easier target. The troulbe is the massive cost of warships and submarines, and for a tier 2 navy, you just do not build second rate main combatants (excluding Long range vessels)

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Old December 8th, 2005   #11
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

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Originally Posted by Dr Phobus
Hello,


I can not help but think that the absolute implosion of the Russian navy and the fact the next navel war will likely be about Taiwan or the Indian ocean, a third to half to globe away has made the RN an easier target. The troulbe is the massive cost of warships and submarines, and for a tier 2 navy, you just do not build second rate main combatants (excluding Long range vessels)

First off The UK Will not likely End up in the Taiwan conflict. I know we have a tendency of sticking with the US as allies but sometimes there are conflicts that will not only put us at odds with other European economic partners but will also put us at a real risk. We may provide Political support but there isn't much we could add to the US Navy's Capability in a Taiwan conflict. If I was a British politician I would choose not to enter another "cold war". The European Focus for the next couple of decades will be integration and Economic development.
In Actual Fact we aren't loosening our Foothold since we'll be looking at a joint European Force and with in that Force we’ll still be a dominant Voice (Force), in actual fact we'll have a Naval Force Probably just as Capable as other Blue water navies. Bear in mind this is a Long term Development goal, not easy to achieve but we’ll eventually figure it out

Last edited by adsH; December 8th, 2005 at 02:38 PM.
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Old December 11th, 2005   #12
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Hello,

I agree with the EU navies operating in conjunction would even give the USN a real headache (although the EU would not prevail). However, I was writing purely from a RN perspective standing alone. Important since, "allies" do not always agree nor help aka the Falklands war. I do not think is all doom and gloom, I am concerned about the lack of SSN's and the need for some form of light frigate for ocean policing.

However, I do see your perspective about RN not being directly involved in a china v USN clash. Strategically the UK/EU may well keep well away. But remember, to show and demonstrate global power and go to war does impact your international standing.

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Old December 11th, 2005   #13
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

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Hello,

I agree with the EU navies operating in conjunction would even give the USN a real headache (although the EU would not prevail). However, I was writing purely from a RN perspective standing alone. Important since, "allies" do not always agree nor help aka the Falklands war. I do not think is all doom and gloom, I am concerned about the lack of SSN's and the need for some form of light frigate for ocean policing.

However, I do see your perspective about RN not being directly involved in a china v USN clash. Strategically the UK/EU may well keep well away. But remember, to show and demonstrate global power and go to war does impact your international standing.

I am wondering if the RN will not participate in the LCS programme that the USN is currently constructing. Along with a heavier Surface Warfare force based on the Type 45 hulls a lighter multi-role ship like one of the LCS designs (I favour the Trimaran based on AUSTALs design myself) would be of use to the RN over the next decade or more as navies move towards a more littoral environment.

These ships have module mission systems to suit different missions.
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Old December 11th, 2005   #14
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I am wondering if the RN will not participate in the LCS programme that the USN is currently constructing. Along with a heavier Surface Warfare force based on the Type 45 hulls a lighter multi-role ship like one of the LCS designs (I favour the Trimaran based on AUSTALs design myself) would be of use to the RN over the next decade or more as navies move towards a more littoral environment.

These ships have module mission systems to suit different missions.

Interesting point with its merits, I never read anything about the RN interested in the LCS designs, although, I know they are toying with some very low end patrol corvette design (armed with a 30mm auto-cannon and a helicopter platform). I am sure $$$ has a lot to do with the cash deprived RN.
Saying that, the Russian navy when they come out of port really do not have enough fuel to exercise hard.

I was worried about the rest of the RN's fleet when the go ahead for these very capable carriers were OKed. I like the idea of buying more T-45's they can have a real Multi-role ability, including an active program looking into developing an ABM ability. For this idea they will need more than 16 strike length A-70's VLS, more like 32-48 i would argue, plus ASCM 8-16 in number.

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Old December 12th, 2005   #15
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Re: Royal Navy Analysis

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Interesting point with its merits, I never read anything about the RN interested in the LCS designs, although, I know they are toying with some very low end patrol corvette design (armed with a 30mm auto-cannon and a helicopter platform). I am sure $$$ has a lot to do with the cash deprived RN.
Saying that, the Russian navy when they come out of port really do not have enough fuel to exercise hard.

I was worried about the rest of the RN's fleet when the go ahead for these very capable carriers were OKed. I like the idea of buying more T-45's they can have a real Multi-role ability, including an active program looking into developing an ABM ability. For this idea they will need more than 16 strike length A-70's VLS, more like 32-48 i would argue, plus ASCM 8-16 in number.

Myself I would move towards the Mk41 VLS, I have heard that the Astor can be integrated into a Mk41, that means that the Tomahawk can be used as well. I believe that between 64 and 72 Mk 41s can be fitted to the Type 45, allowing for a mix of missiles to suit the environment.

Btw the LCS is to cost no more than US$200m per ship (although I will believe that when I see it!) and have a basic crew of 40 odd, and a 85% availability.
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