Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Navy & Maritime

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

This is a discussion on Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Would Canada really want an orphan type in service?...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old September 18th, 2013   #76
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,899
Threads:
Would Canada really want an orphan type in service?
StobieWan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2013   #77
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 2,657
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StobieWan View Post
Would Canada really want an orphan type in service?
Would make sence if they bought it and built one themselves.
t68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013   #78
Defense Aficionado
Major General
John Fedup's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,183
Threads:
Building a sister ship to the Karl Doorman in Canada (assuming it is bid on by DND) might be less expensive than building two Berlin class ships in Canada. More importantly, the former option will have at least one ship that will have been built correctly by an experienced shipyard. As the existing ships could die at any time now Canada may have to settle for an orphan and build the Berlin class ships after the icebreaker.
John Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013   #79
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,628
Threads:
Yeah. Buy one build one could make sense. If (still unconfirmed AFAIK) Karel Doorman is sold, buy her. She's not quite complete, so there's an opportunity to finish her with any Canadian-specific equipment wanted, & then while a new icebreaker is being built, work her up & get ready to build a second of class.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2013   #80
Defense Aficionado
Major General
John Fedup's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,183
Threads:
Although this is a little off topic (quite a bit actually), the Netherlands is also planning to unload their CCV 9035s. The CCV90 is a contender for Canada's close combat vehicle program. Perhaps a package deal with the Karl Doorman supply ship could result in a badly needed procurement success for the Cdn Govt. The 9035 version could complement the CCV version DND wants assuming the CCV90 is the winning bid (we can only hope!) and the delivery would be quick.
John Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2013   #81
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,628
Threads:
Not all of them. The number of CV-9035s to be sold seems a little uncertain, but there doesn't seem to be a plan to go all-wheeled. Some CV-9035 will remain.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2013   #82
Defense Aficionado
Major General
John Fedup's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,183
Threads:
I believe the Netherlands plans to sell 40 and Cdn Govt plan is to buy108. Apparently the Cdn army no longer wants the CCV and the RCN will likely not want the Doorman so maybe this opportunity will be lost by DND/Govt infighting.
John Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2013   #83
Senior Member
Major
harryriedl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: london
Posts: 1,018
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Fedup View Post
I believe the Netherlands plans to sell 40 and Cdn Govt plan is to buy108. Apparently the Cdn army no longer wants the CCV and the RCN will likely not want the Doorman so maybe this opportunity will be lost by DND/Govt infighting.
plus what Ive gathered is the great importance of their be Canadian jobs ideally with local build (of course the Leo's are the exception). I imagine unless it was a first of class their would be hue and cry from the ship builders if they felt they would be denied a big old contract(the Doorman and the CV-9035 would apply)
apologies for being further off topic
________________
Colin McRae 1961-2007 true champion
Unofficial Royal navy cheering section
harryriedl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2013   #84
Defense Aficionado
Major General
John Fedup's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,183
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by harryriedl View Post
plus what Ive gathered is the great importance of their be Canadian jobs ideally with local build (of course the Leo's are the exception). I imagine unless it was a first of class their would be hue and cry from the ship builders if they felt they would be denied a big old contract(the Doorman and the CV-9035 would apply)
apologies for being further off topic
If the Cdn Govt were to acquire the Karel Doorman from the Netherlands, it might mean the loss of one ship but a sister ship would be built in Canada. The CCV program might be for 108 CV-90s with remote weapons stations with an option for 30 more. Having the Dutch big gun version in the mix would offer some flexibility and an opportunity to save money and speed up the process. I guess we will no in a couple of months.
John Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2013   #85
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1
Threads:
I hope Canada is bidding on a package buy of Karel Doorman and the
44 CV9035NL that are for sale, perhaps HMCS Vimy Ridge or HMCS Juno Beach
wouls be good names.
I believe Karel Doorman has 2000 lane meter vehicle capacity, how many military vehicles does this work out too?
ringo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013   #86
Defense Aficionado
Major General
Sea Toby's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,473
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringo View Post
I hope Canada is bidding on a package buy of Karel Doorman and the
44 CV9035NL that are for sale, perhaps HMCS Vimy Ridge or HMCS Juno Beach
wouls be good names.
I believe Karel Doorman has 2000 lane meter vehicle capacity, how many military vehicles does this work out too?
I prefer to think in terms what does a infantry battalion consists of, or a mechanized infantry battalion consists of, or a armored battalion consists of instead, and I am sure that is different with each and every country, but it should be enough to do any of the above as the Dutch planned on the ship to do so.

For example, New Zealand planned their Canterbury sea lift ship to carry an enlarged mechanized infantry company, not a battalion, which require 390 lane meters. HMNZS Canterbury has 403 lane meters. There is no sense in buying a ship that can't do what it is intended to do.
Sea Toby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2013   #87
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
Canada has named its JSS: HMCS Queenston & HMCS Chateauguay, named after important battles in the War of 1812.

Joint Support Ships To Be Named HMCS Queenston and HMCS Chateauguay | Ottawa Citizen

Has there been any news vis-a-vis the RCN SCSC program? If they want construction to start in 2016, then they better get a move on . . .
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2013   #88
Defense Aficionado
Major General
Sea Toby's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,473
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by t68 View Post
Would make sence if they bought it and built one themselves.
Not really in the long term considering spare parts and maintenance procedures shared with others. The British which have three times the population and more shipbuilders have decided to concentrate their efforts with warships, not tankers. There is a reason why most tanker shipping firms have decided to buy their tankers from South Korea, including the British government for their navy.
Sea Toby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2013   #89
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
We figured that as the tankers aren't technically 'complex warships', they can be built externally, as it's only ships classed as such we've created the requirement that we still need to be able to design & build them in house (plus a couple other details, but CBA). Still get 1/3 of the cost of the build in fitting out etc.

If you look at the cost differences in doing so, it's shocking. Something like 3bn CAD for a pair of AORs for the Berlin class isn't it? MARS tankers coming in at ~1bn CAD total for 4 37,000t tankers.

Norway are going the same route too AFAIK, BMT design built by DSME and probably fitted out in Norway.
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2013   #90
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 2,657
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Toby View Post
Not really in the long term considering spare parts and maintenance procedures shared with others. The British which have three times the population and more shipbuilders have decided to concentrate their efforts with warships, not tankers. There is a reason why most tanker shipping firms have decided to buy their tankers from South Korea, including the British government for their navy.
The Canadians see it as nation building and also has a strategic effect to keep their shipbuilding alive, it's not only just about the $ but the long term effect on keeping skills in house you build you maintain it, most spare will be bought off shore anyway you go about it unless its all home grown and as part of any ship building program this will be put aside under a maintenance schedule, the only down side if the do not get their supply chain set up and established before hand could in theory see the ship side lined to a similar degree like HMAS Choules if they are not really familiar with its operating systems. The Australian goverment will also be going thru this assement to replace our replenishment ships we also could be building overseas and building in house so it's not as cut and dried as it seems.
t68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:51 PM.