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This is a discussion on Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Sea Toby Usually replenishment vessels do both liquid and solid replenishment... However, the American navy operates ships ...


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Old August 31st, 2008   #46
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Usually replenishment vessels do both liquid and solid replenishment... However, the American navy operates ships that do liquids or solids for carriers such as the fast stores ships and ammunition ships. In other words, replenishment ships are great for frigates, destroyers, and amphibious ships, whereas they are not so capable replenishing an aircraft carrier.
I only ask because the RN has liquid only replenishments vessels the rover class for instance and was wondering if Procture was the same
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Old August 31st, 2008   #47
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Canadian SSNs

Sorry to change the subject here.

However, I have often wondered about the Canadian Navy's cold-war SSN need and competition.

Correct me if I am wrong; but they seriously looked at the UK's Trafalgar Class and France's Rubis Class and all sides involved spent a considerbale amount of money exploring the option.

Canada's need for a long-range, long-endurance Submarine force is without question given her arctic coastline obligations.

I'm fascinated to know if anyone can tell me anymore on the subject. If memory recalls, US options were ruled out on cost. The Trafalgar was the prefered RCN option yet involved complex US transfer of technology issues. The Canadian Government argued for the cheaper Rubis yet the RCN were reluctant given that SSN's acoustic capabilities.

I hear also that the Canadian decision swayed Australia away from considering a nuclear-sub option.

Fascinated to know anything more on this and opinions whether attitudes may change?
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Old September 21st, 2008   #48
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Fascinated to know anything more on this and opinions whether attitudes may change?
Well, I can't see submaraines ever being purchased from the RN ever again, after the fiasco with the rusted subs that were ultimatley acquired. I don't think any politician is going to go near submarines for a while - I agree though that this is a bit of a shame, as a few nuclear subs would be perfect for the North. The big "hope" seems to be that fuel cell technology or similar will enable a cheaper alternative (perhaps even an upgrade of the subs that were acquired). I think this potential technology may have been influential in swaying away from the costly nuclear option.
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Old April 23rd, 2011   #49
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I see that Canada has virtually given up on the JSS ship, and are now looking at a modified Berlin or Cantabria class AOR as direct replacement. Berlin class on paper is a versatile ship in its own right with a mixed liquid and dry store and has limited hospital facility for 43 patients.

I am no naval architect but modifying the ship from the rear of the upper structure and increasing its length and displacement to incorporate hanger and a flex deck similar to the Absalom class, with the amount of engineering involved it might not make economic sense.

What is the latest with the Victoria class submarine have you got on top off the problems and are all four boats operational to Canadian specs, any idea when these are to replaced and by what size and would they be built in-house or offshore.
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Old April 23rd, 2011   #50
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What is the latest with the Victoria class submarine have you got on top off the problems and are all four boats operational to Canadian specs, any idea when these are to replaced and by what size and would they be built in-house or offshore.
Came across this yesterday, see the link below:

HMCS Victoria Back In the Water - David Pugliese’s Defence Watch

Apparently HMCS Victoria has just come out of dry dock after 5 years of maintenace and repairs, an interesting quote in the article states:

"The Victoria Times Colonist noted that in the last 10 years, HMCS Victoria has spent more months undergoing repairs than days at sea - it has spent 115 days in service and 120 months in dry dock."

Not really value for money!!!
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Old April 24th, 2011   #51
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Came across this yesterday, see the link below:

HMCS Victoria Back In the Water - David Pugliese’s Defence Watch

Apparently HMCS Victoria has just come out of dry dock after 5 years of maintenace and repairs, an interesting quote in the article states:

"The Victoria Times Colonist noted that in the last 10 years, HMCS Victoria has spent more months undergoing repairs than days at sea - it has spent 115 days in service and 120 months in dry dock."

Not really value for money!!!

120 months in dry dock that can’t be right 10 years, HMCS Victoria was only commissioned in December 2000 he has taken a bit of liberty with that story, although your statement of 5years is probably not far off the mark pending on how much needed doing to her.

Deep cycle refits for the O boats were suppose to take 2 years but lasted up to 5 years , but some boats in the Collins class has taken 3.5 to 4 years but i would imagine most of that would have been replacing the fire control system and wiring that goes along with it .

Value for money comment can be taken so many ways, with what you paid for the 4 boats plus refit if it is cheaper than building new yes to a degree it is cheaper, but not if the refit still makes the boat incompatible with conops of the RCN, do those boats meet the needs of the RCN or where they forced on navy to meet a perceived budget.

Interesting that RCN did not look at a partnership in building new boats with the RAN and added 4 boats to the production line. Collins might have been too large for RCN.

Australia's Collins class enters calmer waters
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Old April 24th, 2011   #52
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120 months in dry dock that can’t be right 10 years, HMCS Victoria was only commissioned in December 2000 he has taken a bit of liberty with that story, although your statement of 5years is probably not far off the mark pending on how much needed doing to her.

Deep cycle refits for the O boats were suppose to take 2 years but lasted up to 5 years , but some boats in the Collins class has taken 3.5 to 4 years but i would imagine most of that would have been replacing the fire control system and wiring that goes along with it .

Value for money comment can be taken so many ways, with what you paid for the 4 boats plus refit if it is cheaper than building new yes to a degree it is cheaper, but not if the refit still makes the boat incompatible with conops of the RCN, do those boats meet the needs of the RCN or where they forced on navy to meet a perceived budget.

Interesting that RCN did not look at a partnership in building new boats with the RAN and added 4 boats to the production line. Collins might have been too large for RCN.

Australia's Collins class enters calmer waters
T68,

Im here in OZ too, so I don't know about the Canadian situation, just saw the article and linked it here.
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Old April 24th, 2011   #53
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Ahh no problem, when you posted the link just assumed that you where Canadian as i looked up about the Victoria class and found no mention of that link.

I wonder if colder water temps between the North Pacific Ocean and the North Atlantic Ocean compared to the waters around Australia in the Indian and South Pacific Ocean would have an effect on the ability of Collins class to operate in those waters long term.
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Old April 24th, 2011   #54
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but some boats in the Collins class has taken 3.5 to 4 years but i would imagine most of that would have been replacing the fire control system and wiring that goes along with it .Australia's Collins class enters calmer waters
I am not sure any of them took 4 years but Waller may have stretched to 3.5 when the Government decided to incorporate RCS after her FCD had already begun. Another factor is during the crewing crisis a number of boats have been put into deep layup for a year or more prior to FCD begining due to not having a crew to keep them in service. In this case it is quite unfair to add twelve to eighteen months of layup to the time of the docking as no work, other than preservation and removal of some items of equipment, was actually undertaken during layup.
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Old April 24th, 2011   #55
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I am not sure any of them took 4 years but Waller may have stretched to 3.5 when the Government decided to incorporate RCS after her FCD had already begun. Another factor is during the crewing crisis a number of boats have been put into deep layup for a year or more prior to FCD begining due to not having a crew to keep them in service. In this case it is quite unfair to add twelve to eighteen months of layup to the time of the docking as no work, other than preservation and removal of some items of equipment, was actually undertaken during layup.
That’s true i remember reading about something along those lines as we had no crew for a couple of boats if memory serves me correct.

I am not worried about the time it takes for mid life deep cycles refit just comparing it to the Canadians trying to figure out on why HMCS Victoria was in refit for so long. Would it have been more prudent for the Canadian navy at the time with hindsight to build new submarine’s to elevate the problems with taking on the second hand Upholders of the RN?
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Old April 24th, 2011   #56
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Ahh no problem, when you posted the link just assumed that you where Canadian as i looked up about the Victoria class and found no mention of that link.

I wonder if colder water temps between the North Pacific Ocean and the North Atlantic Ocean compared to the waters around Australia in the Indian and South Pacific Ocean would have an effect on the ability of Collins class to operate in those waters long term.
Did you mean the link I attached is not working? I checked it again and it took me to the page.

Anyway, if you google "david pugliese defence watch" (its a defence blog on the Ottawa Citizen online newspaper).

Cold North Atlantic vs hot tropical ocean operations? Wouldnt have a clue, but I would imagine it wouldn't make too much of a difference. Maybe sonar and sensors are "optimised" for different sea environs.

The Collins were enlarged versions of a Swedish design (the other two competing designs at the time were German and the UK Upholder class, which of couse Canada now operates). So all the contenders at the time were all North European designs.

And yes, there probably were "Australian" specific requirements, but would that have been in relation to their operational environment?, don't know.

If you look at the USN for example, it would operate the SSN and SSBN fleet in all corners of the globe, hot shallow topics and deep cold oceans, I would assume that all the US boats are to the same configuration, regardles of where in the world they operate.
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Old April 24th, 2011   #57
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Does anyone know if canada ever seriously considered collins and is there/been any dialogue between the 2 on collins 2?
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Old April 24th, 2011   #58
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Did you mean the link I attached is not working? I checked it again and it took me to the page.

Anyway, if you google "david pugliese defence watch" (its a defence blog on the Ottawa Citizen online newspaper).

Cold North Atlantic vs hot tropical ocean operations? Wouldnt have a clue, but I would imagine it wouldn't make too much of a difference. Maybe sonar and sensors are "optimised" for different sea environs.

The Collins were enlarged versions of a Swedish design (the other two competing designs at the time were German and the UK Upholder class, which of couse Canada now operates). So all the contenders at the time were all North European designs.

And yes, there probably were "Australian" specific requirements, but would that have been in relation to their operational environment?, don't know.

If you look at the USN for example, it would operate the SSN and SSBN fleet in all corners of the globe, hot shallow topics and deep cold oceans, I would assume that all the US boats are to the same configuration, regardles of where in the world they operate.
Sorry for the confusion, link worked fine it’s just when i was looking for information on the Victoria class boats of the Canadian Navy your link did not even pop up but thanks for the link by the way.

Yeah what you are saying makes sense regarding the boats would have to able to operate in either warm or cold climates, just thought that the shape of the hull might give off less acoustic noise in either hot or cold environments.


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Does anyone know if canada ever seriously considered collins and is there/been any dialogue between the 2 on collins 2?
No idea but both class of boats should need replacing in the same time frame i would imagine considering the age of the Victoria class and Collins first boats the same vintage.
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Old April 24th, 2011   #59
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I can't imagine Collins has any major problems working in colder waters. No less than the oberon class.

I would have thought managing heat in a hot enviroment is much more difficult than managing thermals in a cold enviroment. At depth many waters can be quiet cold which Collins would have to deal with.

I think with hindsight Collins would have been a better bet, but it wouldn't have been easy either. Adding more countries to a project doesn't make it any easier.

I would imagine there would be some conversations, but even with simular requirements theres no sure bet something would come from it. I would imagine tho both of us would be talking to the USA and the UK.
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Old April 24th, 2011   #60
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I can't imagine Collins has any major problems working in colder waters. No less than the oberon class.

I would have thought managing heat in a hot enviroment is much more difficult than managing thermals in a cold enviroment. At depth many waters can be quiet cold which Collins would have to deal with.

I think with hindsight Collins would have been a better bet, but it wouldn't have been easy either. Adding more countries to a project doesn't make it any easier.

I would imagine there would be some conversations, but even with simular requirements theres no sure bet something would come from it. I would imagine tho both of us would be talking to the USA and the UK.
According to "The Collins Class Submarine Story. Steel, Spies and Spin" Canada and New Zealand were seen as possible export customers although this was probably more wishful thinking than anything else. Also the Upholders were considered as an option for Australia when the government was flirting with the idea of cancelling the Collins project.

The Collins were designed by the Swedes and would perhaps perform even better in colder waters than they do in the tropics.
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