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This is a discussion on Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by tatra At least you still got 12 frigates! (Dutch navy went from some 14 major surface combattants ...


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Old August 12th, 2008   #31
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At least you still got 12 frigates! (Dutch navy went from some 14 major surface combattants to just 4 destroyers and 2 frigates in a decade )
The dutch navy is not the only navy to have its numbers reduced by over half since the end of the cold war, the same thing has happened to both the RN and USN (in escort numbers) as well as probably others.

Luckily the RAN is still roughly the same size as it has been the last 30 or 40 years. :P
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Old August 12th, 2008   #32
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Yes but the Dutch Navy has suffered particularly badly-most Nato Navies have cut numbers, but improved the quality of the ships and weapons they have used. Dutch Frigates have always been fairly well balanced with good weapons systems, and they have just cut numbers. Although I suppose these new OPV vessels they are building will do some of the lighter duties.

On the issue of DDGs for the Canadians, if they wanted them thier best bet would be to buy an existing design-purely for speed. At the moment it looks like they could be one of the few 'large' navies without an Area Air Defence capability.
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Old August 13th, 2008   #33
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Yes but the Dutch Navy has suffered particularly badly-most Nato Navies have cut numbers, but improved the quality of the ships and weapons they have used. Dutch Frigates have always been fairly well balanced with good weapons systems, and they have just cut numbers. Although I suppose these new OPV vessels they are building will do some of the lighter duties.

On the issue of DDGs for the Canadians, if they wanted them thier best bet would be to buy an existing design-purely for speed. At the moment it looks like they could be one of the few 'large' navies without an Area Air Defence capability.
they were late to the missile game they didn't have a missile armed escort till Iroquois class of 1970 so being a little behind in AAW is a CFMC tradition.
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Old August 13th, 2008   #34
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they were late to the missile game they didn't have a missile armed escort till Iroquois class of 1970
That's not exactly late.

If you look at early AAW classes (and really, not single-ship classes) outside the USN, say before '67, you'll get... what?

The first four RN County class destroyers, with their Sea Slug and Sea Cat, from '63 on. Dunno how functional that was, the various Type 12 classes didn't get Sea Cat until late 60s to early 70s.
The four T47 Tartar of the MN, upgraded around '63-64, along with the two Duquesne destroyers and the AAW cruiser Colbert, all with Masurca, mid-60s.
Italy was also early with the two Impavidos in '63, using Tartar.

Germany got their first AAW destroyer in '69. Greece came particularly late with the Ellis around '80. Japan... hmmm, that single Amatsukaze in '63 with Mk13? The Dutch only had a single DZP cruiser upgraded with Terrier in '64. Spain... the F70 Baleares class in the late 70s?

Canada was smack in the middle.
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Old August 13th, 2008   #35
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That's not exactly late.

If you look at early AAW classes (and really, not single-ship classes) outside the USN, say before '67, you'll get... what?

The first four RN County class destroyers, with their Sea Slug and Sea Cat, from '63 on. Dunno how functional that was, the various Type 12 classes didn't get Sea Cat until late 60s to early 70s.
The four T47 Tartar of the MN, upgraded around '63-64, along with the two Duquesne destroyers and the AAW cruiser Colbert, all with Masurca, mid-60s.
Italy was also early with the two Impavidos in '63, using Tartar.

Germany got their first AAW destroyer in '69. Greece came particularly late with the Ellis around '80. Japan... hmmm, that single Amatsukaze in '63 with Mk13? The Dutch only had a single DZP cruiser upgraded with Terrier in '64. Spain... the F70 Baleares class in the late 70s?

Canada was smack in the middle.
Agree, however as built the Iroquois were primarily armed with the first generation of Sea Sparrow missiles, not exactly area defense weapons. They also had that wacky looking quad launcher that only the RCN used (I've yet to find a good clear picture of it BTW).
It wasn't until the TRUMP program that they received the SM-2's.
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Old August 13th, 2008   #36
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Technically, Tartar wasn't area air-defence either... so basically, outside the USN, in the 60s we're down to the three French ships with Masurca, the four British ships with Sea Slug and the single Dutch cruiser with Terrier, as far as "real" area AAW goes. And Sea Slug was rather short-ranged in comparison too.
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Old August 16th, 2008   #37
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There will be no replacement for the Iroquois class, effectively reducing the Canadian navy to 12 frigates, and hopefully 3 replenishment/sea lift ships.
I still remember reading in the late 80s about Canadian plans to procure 12 SSNs... my oh my how things can change in 20 years.
The Iroquois are getting obsolete with no phased array radar to guide the SM2s and the platforms are creaking old. There are only 3 left anyway, since the 4th was sunk in an exercise.
My understanding is that Canada is fixing the most urgent problem of being able to deploy to the other side of the world troops, fuel, ammo and all sorts of support material since the Canadian armed forces are peacekeeping very actively. Providing theater area defence is not a priority.
Although personally I would try to add VLS SM2 to 3 or 4 of the Halifax, eventually.

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Old August 17th, 2008   #38
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I still remember reading in the late 80s about Canadian plans to procure 12 SSNs... my oh my how things can change in 20 years.
The Iroquois are getting obsolete with no phased array radar to guide the SM2s and the platforms are creaking old. There are only 3 left anyway, since the 4th was sunk in an exercise.
My understanding is that Canada is fixing the most urgent problem of being able to deploy to the other side of the world troops, fuel, ammo and all sorts of support material since the Canadian armed forces are peacekeeping very actively. Providing theater area defence is not a priority.
Although personally I would try to add VLS SM2 to 3 or 4 of the Halifax, eventually.

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they do seem to be a little on borrowed time. but rember how long they hanged onto Terra Nova from 6th June 1959-11 July 1997 a very long lifespan for a ship of that class
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Old August 18th, 2008   #39
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The last I read is that the Canadians are interested in buying up to 5 OPVs ice strengthened. If there are replacements for the Iroquois destroyers, it will be the OPVs, not destroyers or frigates. There is a concern there will be more illegal fishing up north with the present global warming.
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Old August 18th, 2008   #40
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The last I read is that the Canadians are interested in buying up to 5 OPVs ice strengthened. If there are replacements for the Iroquois destroyers, it will be the OPVs, not destroyers or frigates. There is a concern there will be more illegal fishing up north with the present global warming.
I fully understand where they are coming from. It really makes sense to beef up the policing level presence there. However, should anything actually happen that the OPVs cannot take care of (like someone sending an 'escort' with their fishing fleet) than some Destroyer level backup as a show of force would be a good idea - or the falklands lesson (Destroyers capable of being deployed in the RCN inventory may prevent another nation from 'escorting' their fishing fleet in the first place).

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Old August 25th, 2008   #41
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I've heard there's trouble with the JSS and OPV contract - does anybody have news on this ?

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Old August 25th, 2008   #42
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I've heard there's trouble with the JSS and OPV contract - does anybody have news on this ?

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Canceled by the Tories. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

Shipbuilding industry in Canada is too inefficient. For the budgeted $2.9 billion, Canadian industry couldn't deliver the three JSS. Same goes for the canceled 12 coast guard mid shore patrol boats.

In my opinion, thats what you get with the "boom and bust" formula. An industry that can't produce squat quickly, efficiently, or cheaply.
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Old August 25th, 2008   #43
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Ottawa should take a leaf out of the MOD book here in the UK-give up trying to build everything in Canada and build these support ships in Korea or China, and fit them out for service in a Canadian Dry Dock. CMC cannot go on with 40+ year old repleshiment ships. And thats another point-they should build repleshiment ships, not JSS. I notice from a recent DID article that there was concern trying to shoe-horn sealift into the design would reduce repleshiment capabilty and increase cost, especially given the inexperience shipbuilders for this sort of design.

If the talks go well with the dutch it would not surprise me if their JSS design comes out on top.
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Old August 31st, 2008   #44
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Dose Canada have a proper Sea Lift requirement if not there are many different types of Replenishment vessels.
are the present vessels solids and liquids like the RFA Forts or are they just liquids
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Old August 31st, 2008   #45
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Usually replenishment vessels do both liquid and solid replenishment... However, the American navy operates ships that do liquids or solids for carriers such as the fast stores ships and ammunition ships. In other words, replenishment ships are great for frigates, destroyers, and amphibious ships, whereas they are not so capable replenishing an aircraft carrier.
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