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This is a discussion on Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by JAF Interesting. I was just curious. On first inspection much of what you have written is bang ...


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Old December 20th, 2005   #16
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Lightbulb Re: Canadian tribal replacement

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Originally Posted by JAF
Interesting. I was just curious. On first inspection much of what you have written is bang on.

When the ship was designed (Pre 1985) The sparrow was one of a few choices of PDMS. The MK 41 VLS at the time was earmarked for Standard II, which the Halifax class is not designed to use, being primarily, as you have rightly indicated, an ASW vessel. The other choices of the day were Tomahawks, which you, me and everyone else can forget about Canada ever having, and VLS ASROC, not in the budget.

Now that the Evolved Sea Sparrow has come into being, and with greater oprions for the MK 41, hind sight is always 20/20. 32 VLS in total (16 per side that is) still seems like plenty of PDMS missiles.

As for the Bofors Mk II 57mm, it was reasoned that at the time it would have a greater duo role of surface action against small attack boats and as a secondary PDGS.

Evolving as these discussions naturally do, what role do you see for a 5 in gun on a frigate or destroyer?

The 127mm gun has evolved, with the excalaber round, its extened range with precision ability, thus, ones warship has a useful land attack ability, a very current role. In all, a new and important role. The 57mm gun, is a good light gun system, with the ability to develop into some form of CIWS..

The quad pack VLS ESSM is a concept that does go back aways. MK 41 was always meant for mutli-missile ability. Off the top of my head i can not remember the exact date. However, the halixfax carries only 16 RIM-7M, it would have been a sweet vessel with the Mk 41 8-16 cell...
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Old February 9th, 2006   #17
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I think the Candians should build what the Australians will build to replace their destroyers, especially if the Aussies choose a scaled down version of the Arleigh Burke class that Gibbs&Cox are designing. Otherwise, its the Spanish Aegis frigate/destroyer.
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Old April 11th, 2008   #18
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Halifax-Class Frigates Modernization

Halifax-Class Frigates Modernization: Canadian Forces' Frigates Will Have a Host of New Upgrades by 2017

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(Source: Public Works and Government Services Canada; issued April 10, 2008)

In a joint initiative between PWGSC and the Department of National Defence, the Canadian Forces' Halifax Class frigates will be retrofitted with new operation rooms, radar suites and various communications, control and warfare systems.

The upgrades are part of a C$3.1 billion modernization project that is set to begin in 2010. PWGSC has been involved since 2005 in the planning, preparation and co-ordination of the procurement process of the contracts involved.

The Department conducted several public meetings with potential bidders to provide information about contract requirements. A fairness observer was also appointed to watch over the hiring process and consult the industrial sector to develop thorough Statements of Interest and Qualifications for each contract. All information from the consultations was posted on-line, along with frequently asked questions and answers.

"Our policies are developed to ensure all suppliers get an opportunity to bid," said Terry Williston, Director General of PWGSC's Land, Aerospace and Marine Systems and Major Projects Sector.

"All Canadian suppliers, including small and medium-sized enterprises as well as Aboriginal providers, have a chance for government procurement."

Mr. Williston explained that working groups with both government and industry representatives had been conducted over 18 months for both the combat system integration and ship refit portions of the project.

"The aim was not only to solicit industry's input, but also to strengthen the working relations between the project management office and the Canadian marine and defence industries."

There are five major contract elements that have been, or will be, awarded to qualified Canadian suppliers and service providers:

-- Two Multi-ship Refit Contracts, worth a total of $760 million, will be awarded in 2008. The ships will be refitted between January 2010 and June 2017.
-- Combat Systems Integrator Contract, worth $1.1 billion. A Request for Proposal will be issued to interested companies in early 2008, and a contract is planned for Fall 2008.
-- Command & Control System In-Service Support Contract, worth $300 million. Planned for Fall 2008.
-- Platform System Design Agent Contract, worth $150 million, awarded to Fleetway, Inc. in October 2006.

The frigates have been in service for the past 16 years and were initially designed for warfare missions in open ocean.

The Halifax Class modernization project will bring enhanced capability to the ships, enabling them to effectively function in a wider range of situations and environments.
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Old April 11th, 2008   #19
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Halifax-Class Frigates Modernization: Canadian Forces' Frigates Will Have a Host of New Upgrades by 2017
So no replacement ships for the destroyers, and mid-life upgrades for the frigates.... These upgrades are going to cost almost as much as new frigates.
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Old April 19th, 2008   #20
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So no replacement ships for the destroyers, and mid-life upgrades for the frigates.... These upgrades are going to cost almost as much as new frigates.
Sad news for the Canadian Navy - at least a couple of extended Halifax with SM-2 would have been useful... I wonder what sort of AAW upgrade the Halifax are going to get... especially regarding area defence.

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Old May 14th, 2008   #21
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Canadian FFGs to get spruced up

Apologies if already posted:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...contracts.html
Hopefully this will help up north. Especially now the US has come out and declared they are going to be focused on the northern passageways as future security risks for US.
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Old May 14th, 2008   #22
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Actually it was, but in another topic, I'll go ahead and merge the 2.

I really like the City class, they are good looking ships and decently armed for what they are. I actually like them more than the OHP's (especially after the USN neutered theirs).
Here is a study done by the RCN in 1999 comparing the Halifax class its contemporaries.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/crs/pdfs/cpf_cost_e.pdf
It doesn't list the names of the ships but if you look at the charts and the appendix figuring out what the ships probably are is not that hard.

Ship 1 - Type 23
Ship 2 - FFG 7 (OHP)
Ship 3 - ANZAC
Ship 4 - La Fayette
Ship 5 - Taiwanese OHP
Ship 6 - Klasse F123 (German)
Ship 7 - Meko 200 HN (Hydra)
Ship 8 - Karel Doorman
Ship 9 - Korean KDX-1
Ship 10 - Jiangwei

Here is an article that lists exactly what the upgrades will entail, it also shows layout changes and stuff they want to have if money permits.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmep...Brief_2006.pdf
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Last edited by AegisFC; May 14th, 2008 at 03:26 PM.
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Old May 14th, 2008   #23
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Ship 10 definitely isn't a Floreal. Stated specs ( 2250 tons, 6 SSMs, 6 SAMs, 2x 100mm gun @ 18 rpm, 25 knots max, 170 crew ) fit a Type 055 Jiangwei-I.

Can anyone think of something for Ship 11?

Specs: 2550 tons, 111 crew, no SSM, 76mm gun, 8 SR RL, 6 TT, no helo.
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Old May 15th, 2008   #24
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Originally Posted by AegisFC View Post
Actually it was, but in another topic, I'll go ahead and merge the 2.

I really like the City class, they are good looking ships and decently armed for what they are. I actually like them more than the OHP's (especially after the USN neutered theirs).
Here is a study done by the RCN in 1999 comparing the Halifax class its contemporaries.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/crs/pdfs/cpf_cost_e.pdf
It doesn't list the names of the ships but if you look at the charts and the appendix figuring out what the ships probably are is not that hard.

Ship 1 - Type 23
Ship 2 - FFG 7 (OHP)
Ship 3 - ANZAC
Ship 4 - La Fayette
Ship 5 - Taiwanese OHP
Ship 6 - Klasse F123 (German)
Ship 7 - Meko 200 HN (Hydra)
Ship 8 - Karel Doorman
Ship 9 - Korean KDX-1
Ship 10 - Jiangwei

Here is an article that lists exactly what the upgrades will entail, it also shows layout changes and stuff they want to have if money permits.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmep...Brief_2006.pdf
I agree, their armament is similar to (smaller) european ships of the same generation but they have longer endurance and better rough-sea handling and (probably) smaller noise and thermal signatures. They are designed for duty on both the rough Atlantic and large Pacific oceans.
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Old May 17th, 2008   #25
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Again, I am beginning to think these weapon systems upgrades are a waste of money. At half the price of new frigate, a nation would be better off buying new frigates at the 20 year point and selling the old frigates off, instead of attempting to get 30 years out of them. Maybe the Dutch are correct.

However, I am impressed with the upgrades planned for the City class. The upgrades will bring these ships up to the state of the art as much as possible.

Last edited by Sea Toby; May 25th, 2008 at 10:46 AM.
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Old June 6th, 2008   #26
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Here is an article on the status of Canada's 4 subs.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimesc...5-59fdebda6912

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Canada's sub fleet down to one
Mike Blanchfield, Canwest News Service
Published: Thursday, June 05, 2008

OTTAWA -- For the next year and a half, Canada's navy will have only one submarine at sea from its small fleet of four troubled, second-hand Victoria Class boats, Canwest News Service has learned.

And the damaged HMCS Chicoutimi might not be seaworthy until as late as 2012 -- two years longer than officials said it would take for repairs -- meaning it will have been mothballed for eight years, according to documents recently released under the Access to Information Act.

Of the four submarines in the Canadian fleet, only HMCS Corner Brook is believed to be active. It returned to port in Halifax last month after three months at sea.
HMCS Victoria is in drydock in Esquimalt, where the submarine is undergoing $195 million in repairs and upgrades with a target date to re-enter active duty in 2009.

Three of the subs are based in the East, while one will operate out of CFB Esquimalt.

Canada's purchase of four used submarines from Britain for nearly $900 million, 10 years ago, has been dogged by controversy, technical setbacks and one notable tragedy -- the 2004 fire that grounded the Chicoutimi after claiming the life of one sailor and injuring eight others.

A briefing note prepared for Defence Minister Peter MacKay advised playing down the availability of submarines, in favour of emphasizing they are "an important strategic asset" to Canada's maritime security.

"If pressed on submarine availability," the note advises, MacKay should disclose that the Defence Department "has put in place a maintenance regime that plans for at least one submarine to be available for operations until steady state is achieved in late 2009, after which two or more submarines will usually be operational and available at all times."

In February, the head of the navy, Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson, told reporters he expected all three submarines other than the Chicoutimi to be sailing by late 2009.

As for the Chicoutimi repairs, the briefing note says that "if pressed" MacKay should explain "the best way ahead would be to focus on the other three submarines and to repair Chicoutimi as part of that submarine's already scheduled maintenance period in 2010-2012."

Military officials have said that they expect maintenance to begin in 2010 on the Chicoutimi, which caught fire off the coast of Ireland in October 2004 on its maiden voyage from Scotland to Canada.
Canada seems to have no luck with those subs.
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Old June 7th, 2008   #27
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Again, I am beginning to think these weapon systems upgrades are a waste of money. At half the price of new frigate, a nation would be better off buying new frigates at the 20 year point and selling the old frigates off, instead of attempting to get 30 years out of them. Maybe the Dutch are correct.

However, I am impressed with the upgrades planned for the City class. The upgrades will bring these ships up to the state of the art as much as possible.
Im sure it will be run for more than 30 years, take alook at the Iroquois-class they are expected to retire 2010-2012 thats a 40 year life span. So it only makes sense this is a mid life upgrade, to bring the ship up to world standard and run it for another 20 years. It is much more cost effective this way than buying a new ship for twice as much.


Btw does anyone have any information on possible replacement of the Iroquois class? Ive heard of the providence years back, but havent heard anything recently, especially considering the destroyers are quite old now. Or is the Canadian government not going to replace em?

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Canada seems to have no luck with those subs.
Thats what canada gets for being cheap...

Too bad we didnt order new subs in the first place. All we would have required were 2 subs initially, with a follow on order of 2 more 5 years later. I think we could have managed that alot better.

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Old August 7th, 2008   #28
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The RCN is sending the HMCS Ville de Quebec to escort food shipments going to Somalia.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...vy-Somalia.php
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Old August 7th, 2008   #29
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Im sure it will be run for more than 30 years, take alook at the Iroquois-class they are expected to retire 2010-2012 thats a 40 year life span. So it only makes sense this is a mid life upgrade, to bring the ship up to world standard and run it for another 20 years. It is much more cost effective this way than buying a new ship for twice as much.


Btw does anyone have any information on possible replacement of the Iroquois class? Ive heard of the providence years back, but havent heard anything recently, especially considering the destroyers are quite old now. Or is the Canadian government not going to replace em?



Thats what canada gets for being cheap...

Too bad we didnt order new subs in the first place. All we would have required were 2 subs initially, with a follow on order of 2 more 5 years later. I think we could have managed that alot better.
There will be no replacement for the Iroquois class, effectively reducing the Canadian navy to 12 frigates, and hopefully 3 replenishment/sea lift ships.
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Old August 12th, 2008   #30
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There will be no replacement for the Iroquois class, effectively reducing the Canadian navy to 12 frigates, and hopefully 3 replenishment/sea lift ships.
At least you still got 12 frigates! (Dutch navy went from some 14 major surface combattants to just 4 destroyers and 2 frigates in a decade )
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