India-U.S. Air Force Exercises Feb.14-26

[Indus]

First ever Indo-US combat air exercise at Gwalior

Thursday, 05 February , 2004, 09:26

New Delhi: Indian and American air forces will hold their first joint combat exercise in Gwalior from February 14 to 26.
In the run up to the exercise, an IAF team went to America to get familiar with USAF operational procedures. Three Indian pilots flew with their American counterparts in twin-seater F-16s, according to an IAF spokesman.

The exercise, Cope India '04, will be the largest that India has held with any foreign air force, the spokesman said. For the Americans it is a chance to try out the IAF's Russian fighters, including the Su-30MKI.

Though there were reservations about fielding the Su-30MKIs, it is learnt that the IAF is going to field them along with Mirage 2000 fighters, Jaguars and MiG-21s.

The US is expected to field six F-15Cs and approximately 140 personnel from Elmendorf AFB, Alaska. Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy had discussed the basic contours of the exercise with his American counterparts during his visit to the US in September 2003.

A major aspect of the growing Indo-US defence cooperation is to develop interoperability. "Progress in interoperability will depend on a number of factors to include frequency of training exchanges, exchange of doctrines, and access to equipment," an American official recently told newsmen "India's desire to buy US equipment through FMS (Foreign Military Sale) and US willingness to sell state-of-the- art equipment are converging.

In October 2002, the two sides carried out an air transport exercise codenamed Cope India '02. "Those exercises were meant to develop a baseline for future interoperability that include fighter aircraft exchange," the official said.

The same year the two air forces also began an instructor pilot exchange programme. The two air forces are set to conduct Cooperative Cope Thunder July 4, 2004 in Alaska, he added.

Link-> http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13380312

Other articles on this:
- http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/01/mil-040122-pacaf01.htm
- http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-02/13/content_1313597.htm

 

[webmaster]

Airforce topics belong in Military Aviation forum. We should know that by now!

 

[Roger Smith]

Great!!!!!! :smokingc:

 

[Indus]

This will be a great chance for some rare Sukhoi 30 v. F-15 dogfighting...

It will be an opportunity for both India and U.S. to practice against the fighters each country could possibly face in a future war.. although im not sure if pak currently has F-15's (or just F-16's) or will be acquiring some later..

 

[Soldier]

This will be a great chance for some rare Sukhoi 30 v. F-15 dogfighting...

It will be an opportunity for both India and U.S. to practice against the fighters each country could possibly face in a future war.. although im not sure if pak currently has F-15's (or just F-16's) or will be acquiring some later..

As far as I know, Pakistan possesses F-16's only as of now.

 

[PAF GIRL]

although im not sure if pak currently has F-15's (or just F-16's) or will be acquiring some later..

:rotfl PAF does not have F-15 and it doesn't have any plans on acquiring F-15s or F-16.

I think PAF's love with F-16s is about over and we need to move on with JF-17, J-10 and Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen, etc.

 

[Winter]

although im not sure if pak currently has F-15's (or just F-16's) or will be acquiring some later..

:rotfl PAF does not have F-15 and it doesn't have any plans on acquiring F-15s or F-16.

I think PAF's love with F-16s is about over and we need to move on with JF-17, J-10 and Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen, etc.

Are Eurofighters/Rafales/Gripens actually on the cards for the PAF?

 

[Indus]

Does anyone know if Sukhoi 30 has done dogfighting w/ F-15 before.. if so what was assessment..??

 

[gf0012-aust]

There have been a number of simulations done.

This is always a bit of an emotive argument as everyone wants to back up their fav plane.

The bottom line though is that the simulation data is never released into the public domain, so whatever you see and hear on the net is speculation and wishful thinking.

On a different note, to give a different perspective, I don't know of any wargamers/planners in the RAAF who view the Su-30 as a threat against our projected ORBAT of circa 2006.

Its a pretty capable aircraft though, and like any plane would be a headache in the hands of a competent pilot and a decent weapons mix.

The R-77 used to be viewed as the ultimate missile, but that is not so now, and the upcoming Radar mods also seem to weigh in the 15's favour.

The thing to remember is that in normal combat, battle doctrine the US would be running integrated C4i/EW solutions - so the planes are always part of a centric solution.

Dogfighting days are almost a thing of the past with the integrated focus of AWACs, C4i, C5i and BVR etc..

Either way, it will be a good show as the US has actively wargamed against Luftwaffe flown Mig 29s (they were finally retired from the Luftwaffe and given to Poland - who apparently will pick up the European "aggressor" role in future combat training)

There's been a persistent rumour that the US did have an SU-27 that was acquired via a friendly nation. This wouldn't be surprising to me. After all they have something like 30 Fulcrums, in stock in the US (21 of which they bought from Moldava).

A third of the Iraqi air force was recovered and it is till unclear as to what types and numbers were recovered by the TE teams. A considerable amount were in distressed condition, but there are enough bits and pieces of various aircraft for the US to fill in more "gaps" on Russian aircraft capability.

Either way, pilots being pilots, they will be telling "fishing stories"

 

[The Watcher]

Someone posted this sim some tiime ago and SU-30 did well against F-15 so I guess its better? But you would never know until they face off in real combat.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Someone posted this sim some tiime ago and SU-30 did well against F-15 so I guess its better? But you would never know until they face off in real combat.

That sim was discussed recently on a number of sites, and is generally accepted as being old and irrelevant. It's been looked at over here (obviously) when we were doing our threat assessments for replacing the Hornets.

On current generation US assests with centric control it isn't seen as a threat. Approx 18 months ago, there was still an advantage weighted in favour of the '30 in a 1 to 1 situation. On a combined solution air theatre - no.

Which is why I was referring to the dogfighting days of yore not being entirely relevant. The dominant theatre player will dictate warfighting on their terms - not fight to the opponents strengths.

eg, by forcing the tempo up against Russian aircraft, it is generally accepted that they will start to suffer frame and component failures as the build quality and maint schedules will saturate the capacity to sortie at a high rate. quality and integrated doctrine talks volumes in the end.

That isn't to detract from the capability of the aircraft, as personally I still regard it as a standalone benchmark - however warfighting is not like boxing - 1 on 1 etc. Its more like a 3d game of chess.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Well said, Gf, and that's what a lot of people need to remember when proposing x vs y platform contests or polls. Even the same aircraft will be a completely unknown quantity when combined with a proper C4I system, backed up by AWACS and air-air refuellers.

 

[Winter]

US and India begin 10-day joint air combat exercises

NEW DELHI - (AFP) The United States and India were due to start 10 days of joint air combat exercises yesterday in another sign of the two countries' intensifying military relationship

The exercises will involve India's Russian-designed MiG-21s, MiG-27s, MiG-29s, Sukhoi-30s and French built Mirage-2000 fighters as well as the US Air Force's F-15 combat jets, an Indian Air Force (IAF) spokesman said.

The exercises over the central Indian state of Madhya Pradesh are aimed at facilitating future joint peacekeeping operations.

They are not for any combat role alongside US forces, press reports quoted IAF officials as saying.

Over the past two years, military ties have warmed between the US and India - countries which were on opposite sides of the fence during the Cold War. Traditionally, India had tilted towards its Cold War ally, Moscow, which continues to supply 70 per cent of its military hardware.

The USAF has brought in 100 personnel for the joint exercises besides two C-5 Galaxy heavy transport planes to provide airlift facilities for the deployment and supply of combat and support troops.

The manoeuvres will help the IAF and USAF sharpen combat skills and get used to each others' operating styles, press reports said.

The two countries resumed joint military training in 2002 after Washington lifted sanctions imposed on India after New Delhi held nuclear tests in 1998.

Last October, the US and Indian navies held five days of joint manoeuvres in the Arabian Sea, a month after holding week-long joint military exercises in the Ladakh region of the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir.

Source 1: SpaceWar

Source 2: Straits Times

Another, more curious one mentioning the SU-30MKI:

India, US warjets share skies

NEW DELHI, FEBRUARY 16: The first Indo-US combat aircraft exercises in more than 40 years took off today with the IAF and USAF jets taking to the skies over Gwalior to familiarise themselves with the terrain. While both sides have held back their trump cards, the IAF held back the SU-30 MKI while the USAF refused to field the AWACS, F-16s and refuellers, the exercise is being viewed as a major learning experience for both the Air Forces.

According to Air Headquarters, the iAF will be fielding the Mirage-2000, MiG-29, MiG-21 Bison and the SU-30K against the USAF’s F-15C fighters. The first day was spent in familiarising pilots with local terrain from the air followed by joint briefing sessions. Over the next 10 days fighter pilots of both countries will be pitted against each other and will also fly ‘‘joint missions’’. These include practicing intercepts, air combat manoeuvres, protection of high value assets and testing each other’s radar capabilities.

According to South Block officials, the IAF was keen on the USAF providing an AWACS platform during the air exercises. With India looking forward to signing a tripartite agreement to acquire the Phalcon radars, the IAF had discussed the presence of an AWACS during the exercises. However the USAF cited operational commitments for not being able to deploy the early warning radar, said sources. The IAF also turned down a USAF request to field the state-of-the-art SU-30MKI and the air exercises will only see the deployments of the older standard SU-30K.

Source: Indian Express

:frosty

 

[mukul]

No counrty will put thier aces in trainning ..

 

[Roger Smith]

This is India's credibility being recognized as a military power in the world as there is air force excercises between India and USA as well naval excercises between India and France.

 

[gf0012-aust]

This is India's credibility being recognized as a military power in the world as there is air force excercises between India and USA as well naval excercises between India and France.

I don't think there has been too much reticence in recognising that India is a military power - the issue has always been the speed and stability of its evolution.

I was involved in various meetings in the mid 1990's where we discussed Indias emerging military abilities. Its not something that is a horizon event.

Often though, these types of discussions tend to get hijacked by either patriots or detractors and it diminishes the quality of discussion.

With power though, comes responsibility.

 

[Roger Smith]

This is India's credibility being recognized as a military power in the world as there is air force excercises between India and USA as well naval excercises between India and France.

I don't think there has been too much reticence in recognising that India is a military power - the issue has always been the speed and stability of its evolution.

I was involved in various meetings in the mid 1990's where we discussed Indias emerging military abilities. Its not something that is a horizon event.

Often though, these types of discussions tend to get hijacked by either patriots or detractors and it diminishes the quality of discussion.

With power though, comes responsibility.

You have raised good points and I fully agree with you.

 

[umair]

Well guys regarding that Flanker sim,as it was a Russian run sim it u know well overstated some flanker family capabilities.
For one it's agility.The Flanker family is a group of very agile fighters no doubt,but the caveat is that they get that super agility of theirs when they have 1/3 rd of their fuel lef(and that too in a clean form).
Before that (T.V or not) with a fuel load greater than bingo and a weapons load, those things are flying tanks(another reason why we did,nt buy the Flankers when they were offered back in 92-94).
The Eagle on the other hand was designed as an all can do air-air fighter.It has better maneauverability than the Flanker while carrying heavy loads(case in point 15E) and with the new APG7X radar series, it'll lose it's null zone disadvantage against the Flankers.Add to that the new AIM-9X series of SRAAMs and the Eagle in my view takes the cake.
P.S Winter the PAF will anounce it's new western 4th gen fighter somtime late this year or in eary 2005, along withthe J-10 which is definite.The frontrunners according to my sources are the Rafale and the Eurofighter.Of these two I guess the Typhoon stands a better chance of fullfilling the 40-60 aircraft order.Gary would know the reason why hint: 50 Typhoons for $2.5 billion bid to the Saudis whereas Ze French " sachrebleau! le discount"(s'cuse my french spelling gave up classes in 6th grade) .Sarmad also made a post to this effect sometime back.

 

[Panzer]

I found this article from Aviation Week and Space Technology, aviationnow.com
by David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

"It works in the simulator every time," the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.

full article at
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f15-su30-1.html

 

[gf0012-aust]

Panzer, all I can say to you is that scenario is now considered redundant.

It was effective then, and is not seen as a threat now. RAAF pilots have gone through scenarios on how to contest this flyoff situation.

On a force that is not integrated with some non specified systems - yes it will still have effect.