This is a discussion on Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by mankyle
But, for something like Tonga, Fiji or other micronesia states sending an LHD is overkill
Something ...
But, for something like Tonga, Fiji or other micronesia states sending an LHD is overkill
Something like a Bay class, a Roterdamm/Galicia Class or a Foudre or similar LPD, with ro/ro capabilities, capable of transporting 3-5 medium or 1-2 heavy Helicopters would be much more appropiate (IMO)
actually they're not.
Manoora/ Kanimbla were the poor equivalent of a deployed HQJOC with full comms and the best floating surgical/hospital facilities floating in the region. Outside of dedicated ships like Mercy, better medical capability than the majority of large ships in PACOM
the size in a command level is irrelevant, its the capability.
as they are the equiv of a mobile HQJOC and a deployed Govt decision house, then its the onboard capability that counts.
The fatships are a legacy of the lessons learnt from prev deployments of the twins, Jervis Bay lessons in ET etc... They are a much more competent command asset, and far more useful as floating medical facilities as the order of sophistication is an order of magnitude ahead...
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Kanimblaīs crew is +200, almost like the Canberra. Add the air crew needed.
More fuel consuption, in general probably, but once in zone in low consuption mode it will not be significant difference, probably.
You've lost me here. What are you talking about?
Kanimbla isn't going anywhere without 2 barges following, one full of money to pay for parts, and one full of parts which won't help anyway
Kanimbla/Manoora and the fatships are command assets. The fatships however bring other advantages to the table and from lessons learnt in East Timor in 99
it is ultimately irrelevant that the fatships have a flat deck as their CONOPs priority is to be a deployed HQJOC running purple events.
just because something looks like a helo carrier, looks like a carrier, or can carry air elements does not mean that this is its primary mission in life. Can they do it? yes. Is it their primary job? NO
we're not going to go down this ridiculous debate about "aircraft carriers" again when its apparent that some don't understand their principle mission in the first place.
the fatships are B1 running around on water to manage purple events. (B1 = HQJOC)
the only work discussions I've ever had about air capability and the fatships is about what the Tigers won't be doing. All other chat is about C2/C3/C4i
In rough terms they are going to do primary roles that ships like the USS Blue Ridge do but with the added advantage of being haulers and emergency hosptials.
They are theatre command assets first and foremost.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Kanimbla isn't going anywhere without 2 barges following, one full of money to pay for parts, and one full of parts which won't help anyway
Kanimbla/Manoora and the fatships are command assets. The fatships however bring other advantages to the table and from lessons learnt in East Timor in 99
it is ultimately irrelevant that the fatships have a flat deck as their CONOPs priority is to be a deployed HQJOC running purple events.
just because something looks like a helo carrier, looks like a carrier, or can carry air elements does not mean that this is its primary mission in life. Can they do it? yes. Is it their primary job? NO
we're not going to go down this ridiculous debate about "aircraft carriers" again when its apparent that some don't understand their principle mission in the first place.
the fatships are B1 running around on water to manage purple events. (B1 = HQJOC)
the only work discussions I've ever had about air capability and the fatships is about what the Tigers won't be doing. All other chat is about C2/C3/C4i
In rough terms they are going to do primary roles that ships like the USS Blue Ridge do but with the added advantage of being haulers and emergency hosptials.
They are theatre command assets first and foremost.
The thing is not how big or fat looks the fatship that is sent somewhere, either a Kanimbla Class or Canberra, the thing is how expensive it becomes, and that were my previous points wrt crew and fuel.
Other thing is if you need or want to add an escort for the fatship, or if you would do it or not depending if it is Kanimbla or Canberra. To add an escort would add expense.
Canberras are expected to be quite selfsufficient, even to give electricity to a town or whatever.
We read mentions to the Canberras Adf attached aircraft: 10 helos, or 16-24 helos.
As in my previous message i didnt mention nothing wrt jets, and you did in this one iīm responding, let me say, to reply you, Tigers canīt be electronically touched with the ships at distances, but maybe the F35b can be with the ships (electronically as you say, radar, satcom, radio-ionosphere, datalink) and with the helos (datalink, radio?), that are under the umbrella of the F35b. I am talking about reality, modern comms and cockpit management.
As in my previous message i didnt mention nothing wrt jets, and you did in this one iīm responding, let me say, to reply you, Tigers canīt be electronically touched with the ships at distances, but maybe the F35b can be with the ships (electronically as you say, radar, satcom, radio-ionosphere, datalink) and with the helos (datalink, radio?), that are under the umbrella of the F35b. I am talking about reality, modern comms and cockpit management.
I am NOT going to have a discussion about the C2/C3/C4i fitouts of australian warships. especially these ships.
a very big HINT
these are floating HQ's my very unsubtle reference to USS Blue Ridge and its primary theatre role should make it clear.
again, you are passing comments about what RAN will do with these ships which is great for the internet but has little to do with their intended employment.
they can also carry 120 ferraris on the top decks, that doesn't make them a luxury car carrier.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
I am NOT going to have a discussion about the C2/C3/C4i fitouts of australian warships. especially these ships.
a very big HINT
these are floating HQ's my very unsubtle reference to USS Blue Ridge and its primary theatre role should make it clear.
again, you are passing comments about what RAN will do with these ships which is great for the internet but has little to do with their intended employment.
they can also carry 120 ferraris on the top decks, that doesn't make them a luxury car carrier.
The fitout is going to be great, because it is been said in Ranīs personnel interviews, they are having the best equipment possible, meaning the electronic, with a big amount in Australian industries, and so it is expensive because of something.
For sure ready, in that aspect, for high intensity scenarios.
Recall the video from Bae, 10 helos, recall online articles pointing to deployments of 16-24 helos. A typical marine op can be lift in a couple of hours 400 soldiers and some equipment via 4 Chinooks and 8 med helos from a Lhd, to secure an Embassy in Libia, Indonesia etc, in coups of state, clashes we are seeing.
North Africa it is not too far from Oceania/Australia, there is a cultural/religious muslim/arab line joining them, demostrations are running like the powder.
The flight decks are flexible items, can carry still more containers, or park many helos and just use half the spots, upload moderated heavy vehicles via ramp to the upper deck, and via lifts to the flight deck, i am talking about lorries with missiles, radars, etc.
And all what is coming, lots of uavs, rotarys or not. Iīve seen fast supercats unmanned already with sensors for the dock..
Take this as a formal warning. The Hypothetical Carrier thread was closed for a reason. This thread is NOT an opportunity to carry on talking about the fatships again.
You have made a number of claims and assumptions previously as well as now about these platforms which were quite frankly wrong. We are NOT going to go through this again
Find another topic but give this hobby horse a rest.
The fitout is going to be great, because it is been said in Ranīs personnel interviews, they are having the best equipment possible, meaning the electronic, with a big amount in Australian industries, and so it is expensive because of something.
For sure ready, in that aspect, for high intensity scenarios.
Recall the video from Bae, 10 helos, recall online articles pointing to deployments of 16-24 helos. A typical marine op can be lift in a couple of hours 400 soldiers and some equipment via 4 Chinooks and 8 med helos from a Lhd, to secure an Embassy in Libia, Indonesia etc, in coups of state, clashes we are seeing.
North Africa it is not too far from Oceania/Australia, there is a cultural/religious muslim/arab line joining them, demostrations are running like the powder.
The flight decks are flexible items, can carry still more containers, or park many helos and just use half the spots, upload moderated heavy vehicles via ramp to the upper deck, and via lifts to the flight deck, i am talking about lorries with missiles, radars, etc.
And all what is coming, lots of uavs, rotarys or not. Iīve seen fast supercats unmanned already with sensors for the dock..
You have apparently completely missed the point behind GF referencing USS Blue Ridge. I am therefore including the following link to the official USN page for the USS Blue Ridge.
Blue Ridge is a command ship, in other words, it is a floating command post and HQ. As I understand it, the RAN are planning on using the Canberra-class LHD's as their command ships. As such, the fact that they can also act as amphibs, and/or carry out air ops could be considered a "bonus". The most important role/mission they will be having is as a command ship.
I do not know for a fact, but I suspect part of the reason why they are command ships, apart from the need for a fair about of real estate aboard a ship for electronics and comms, is that the sort of ops that amphibs are involved in also will require a command asset to properly coordinate and control forces.
Do not get so hung up on what a Canberra-class can lift/land/deploy, instead pay more attention to the how and why the RAN is planning on using them.
-Cheers
________________
"I'm doing the same thing I do every night, Pinky..." comment from one lab mouse to another.
So what i said ago about the 3rd sealift with flight deck.
The Canberras are valued for all, the command, the sealift, and the helos.
They were all requirements.
Future is Uavīs. Is joint exercises and ops with Us, Ospreys. These add value to the flight deck.
Can say, from the Adf, Chinooks, Tigers, Nh90īs, the asw and aew helos. Adf has lots of helos.
In the sense, that 2 flight decks can a lot, or weighting reasons for the 3rd flight deck in the 3rd sealift ship.
If you deploy a smaller sealift and commando ship, than a Canberra, is it going to sustain the actions in say a certain island or peninsule? A Canberra, not just brings the corresponding elements but sustains them for a month or more, within a reasonable price in crew and fuel.
You have apparently completely missed the point behind GF referencing USS Blue Ridge. I am therefore including the following link to the official USN page for the USS Blue Ridge.
-Cheers
No, i accept perfectly its command and control mission, whether they control ground elements or air elements. Many or little.
But i was pointing values of flight deck whenever corresponds to act. You can call it bonus, or secondary requirement it doesnt matter i am not discussing that.
But Asw and Aew helos from port to port are, at least a minimal of those, should be very important. And if you want 24/7 Asw or Aew or Antisurface helo presence then you need some helos and spots in a decent flight deck.
I must admit this one concerns me as well GF, particulary if they consider the "Canterbury" Solution as being able to provide for us until the LHD's arrive.
The Bay is not looking like the quick fire sale we would have liked
P.S. I was joking about the S by the way
I would ask how useful is being the Canterbury in the earthquacke nowadays.
I would suggest a look at old ships from other navies, apart from Bay if not suits, Armada has 2 Lst from the 70īs, but i donīt know the state of the ship. Apart the 2 Galicias which are very complete.
Good transport caps, and to the beach also. Donīt have surgery but yes infirmary, nor special command and control design probably. Itīs useful for civilian evacuations, heavy vehicles, like 3500 t. of load. and flight deck for 1 med helo.
But being a good allye with the Uk and Usa, they could make a political favour and lease the Bay or other for a small price, say 10 mill per year, cheaper than fixing the Manoora or Kanimbla.
Now if Chileans of Brazilians make an offer for the Bay, probably Royal Navy would sell it first than lease it, but if Minister says letīs a do favour...
Equally the possible transfer/share of the F100 platform design to Uk for T26 is something that donīt know how has been compensated.
I am NOT going to have a discussion about the C2/C3/C4i fitouts of australian warships. especially these ships.
a very big HINT
these are floating HQ's my very unsubtle reference to USS Blue Ridge and its primary theatre role should make it clear.
again, you are passing comments about what RAN will do with these ships which is great for the internet but has little to do with their intended employment.
they can also carry 120 ferraris on the top decks, that doesn't make them a luxury car carrier.
I hadnt actually considered it before but I suppose it comes down to the complexity of littoral warfare with over lapping (purple) defensive spheres. You will have a very large complicated intelligence picture to digest and disseminate.
There will likely be land based airborne ISR and strike assets, seaborne ISR, air defence and strike assets as well as land borne assets. Subs, aircraft, surface combatants (large and small), fat ships, smaller intra theatre amphibs (LCH, their replacements and LCM, their replacements) and the special and other combat forces they deploy. NGFS, coastal artillery, armour, infantry etc etc.
Having a handle on all of this while controlling your own assets is daunting enough but consider the fact you need to factor in what the neutrals and non aligneds are doing as well and it is clear that some sort of command ship is a necessity.
I would suggest a look at old ships from other navies, apart from Bay if not suits, Armada has 2 Lst from the 70īs, but i donīt know the state of the ship. Apart the 2 Galicias which are very complete.
Thats how the problems with K & M started in the first place!!
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Good transport caps, and to the beach also. Donīt have surgery but yes infirmary, nor special command and control design probably. Itīs useful for civilian evacuations, heavy vehicles, like 3500 t. of load. and flight deck for 1 med helo.
These ships are effectively being purchased as fleet flagships and expeditionary force command ships all in one. The UK equivilants would be Albion and Bulwark, the US Equivilent would be Blue Ridge and Mount Whitney.
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But being a good allye with the Uk and Usa, they could make a political favour and lease the Bay or other for a small price, say 10 mill per year, cheaper than fixing the Manoora or Kanimbla.
Manoora is gone, Kanimbla probably should be gone as well. Also, a Bay class, which has very little-to no C&C equipment aboard is no replacement for the FULL C&C facilities aboard K & M. A Bay class would however be an ideal replacement for HMAS Tobruk.
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Now if Chileans of Brazilians make an offer for the Bay, probably Royal Navy would sell it first than lease it, but if Minister says letīs a do favour...
I don't think Chillie or Brazil have the money, but even if they did, there are more important issues at stake, and a lease would potentially give the RN her back in 5-10 years when they have a bit more money.
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Equally the possible transfer/share of the F100 platform design to Uk for T26 is something that donīt know how has been compensated.
I hope not, the F-100 is an old (1990's) design, they'd (and probably us to) would probably be better off using the hull and Engines of the Daring class if they were to use an existing hull design as a basis for the T26.
Plus T26 *should* already be a fair way through the design process, they've been working on it long enough.
Thats how the problems with K & M started in the first place!!
i think its also worth noting the 2 LST's he is talking about are newports... so we'd effectively be buying the same ships, but less capable, and probably more rusted considering how much we have spent on ours
Wa wondering if anyone knew of the fate of the ex-HMAS Ardent? I know that she was gifted to NT for use as a memorial/museum around a decade ago after her use in Sydney as a nav trainer. Had a look around when I was in Darwin for Kakadu last year, but buggered if I could find her, nor did anyone have any info either. Just interested as I did a few trips on her as a NRC cadet in the very early 90's in Tassie.
Cheers
PS: also glad to see that another one of my previous ships, the Adelaide, has a new sinking date after the claims of the NSAG have been thrown out in court.
Last edited by Pusser01; February 27th, 2011 at 01:10 AM.
Reason: spelling
i think its also worth noting the 2 LST's he is talking about are newports... so we'd effectively be buying the same ships, but less capable, and probably more rusted considering how much we have spent on ours
I didn't even look to see what ship class they were....
Anyway, i still can't see how anyone can see purchasing a 40 year old ship as being a good idea in any event.
@ Jaimito: You realise those ships are only 12 months younger then K & M, havent had $300 million spent on them 10 years ago bringing them up to scratch and are the exact same ship class right? It wouldn't be an upgrade, it would be a massive downgrade in capability
