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RAN Future Frigate Updates, disscusion and News

This is a discussion on RAN Future Frigate Updates, disscusion and News within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Hazdog Hey ADMk2 , would you place the 2nd vls on the anzacs? Are there any other ...


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Old January 1st, 2017   #61
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Hey ADMk2 , would you place the 2nd vls on the anzacs? Are there any other changes you would make to the fleet?

What is good is that the LHD's are going to get a self defence suite with the addition of 3 Phalanx CIWS.
The second VLS is not fitted because of topweight and stability issues, no other reason.
The ships are a light patrol frigate that have been given added capability and equipment which has sent them to the absolute limits of their displacement.
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Old January 1st, 2017   #62
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The second VLS is not fitted because of topweight and stability issues, no other reason.
The ships are a light patrol frigate that have been given added capability and equipment which has sent them to the absolute limits of their displacement.
Thanks for the reply i never found that out until now.
Cheers.
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Old January 3rd, 2017   #63
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Just imagine how our automotive industry would be going now had it been supported and modernised, just look at Toyota even though they are winding down they are profitable.
The automobile industry in Australia has been dying since the 90's, Australia isn't a big enough market with cheap enough labour to support it, it was only a matter of time before it closed down.
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Old January 3rd, 2017   #64
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The automobile industry in Australia has been dying since the 90's, Australia isn't a big enough market with cheap enough labour to support it, it was only a matter of time before it closed down.
Passenger vehicle sales have bern around a million a year for several years, more than enough to support a local industry. What killed it was government policy, an extended, so sitting mining construction boom and mismanagement by Ford and GM, pure and simple. Pull any one of those factors out and the industry would not only have survived, it would have been profitable and ramped up significantly post mining boom.

For example VE commodore was specifically designed to be stretched and shortened as required to produce an even greater variety of models than the preceding VZ with its sedan, stretched sedan, wagon coupe, ute, 1 Tonne Ute, crew cab ute and AWD models. VE was the platform used for the reborn Camaro but back in Aus where Mooney replaced Hannenburger, after years of perfecting building niche models on a common line, the local line up was cut to the bone and guess what, sales dropped. Ford also was building niche models and also planned to start building Focus locally while the Australian designed and developed Ford Ranger was also a distinct possibility for local production.

What happened, well, mining construction boom, stacked un-productivity commission, GFC, brain dead anti local manufacturing free trade agreements (This built cars are sold in Aust with no tariff or specific sales tax while Australian cars sold in Thailand had a 100% sales tax), opening the Australian automotive market to dumping, including models that did not meet Australian design rules. Basically the local industry was exposed to over a decade of unfair competition from operators who did not need to follow the same rules while battling the effects of an unnaturally high dollar and the financial troubles of their parent organisations.

I am waiting for the cries of despair when not only the Korean cars, but Thai and Chinese ones become an unaffordable luxury once local production is totally dead and the dollar drops to more traditional levels.
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Old January 3rd, 2017   #65
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Passenger vehicle sales have bern around a million a year for several years, more than enough to support a local industry. What killed it was government policy, an extended, so sitting mining construction boom and mismanagement by Ford and GM, pure and simple. Pull any one of those factors out and the industry would not only have survived, it would have been profitable and ramped up significantly post mining boom.

For example VE commodore was specifically designed to be stretched and shortened as required to produce an even greater variety of models than the preceding VZ with its sedan, stretched sedan, wagon coupe, ute, 1 Tonne Ute, crew cab ute and AWD models. VE was the platform used for the reborn Camaro but back in Aus where Mooney replaced Hannenburger, after years of perfecting building niche models on a common line, the local line up was cut to the bone and guess what, sales dropped. Ford also was building niche models and also planned to start building Focus locally while the Australian designed and developed Ford Ranger was also a distinct possibility for local production.

What happened, well, mining construction boom, stacked un-productivity commission, GFC, brain dead anti local manufacturing free trade agreements (This built cars are sold in Aust with no tariff or specific sales tax while Australian cars sold in Thailand had a 100% sales tax), opening the Australian automotive market to dumping, including models that did not meet Australian design rules. Basically the local industry was exposed to over a decade of unfair competition from operators who did not need to follow the same rules while battling the effects of an unnaturally high dollar and the financial troubles of their parent organisations.

I am waiting for the cries of despair when not only the Korean cars, but Thai and Chinese ones become an unaffordable luxury once local production is totally dead and the dollar drops to more traditional levels.
Sorry Volk - Australians chose not to buy Australian vehicles because they preferred the variety of 4 cylinder cars that were built overseas. Also there was the wages. Here in Adelaide a first year Holden worker could earn $60K/ year which was more than a first year teacher could earn after doing 3 years at Uni - I heard the Holden wages direct from GMH workers. That shows how the Unions plucked the Goose that laid the golden egg. The only way car building was sustainable was if $A = $0.7US, but once we hit $.90 and above we were uncompetitive.
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Old January 3rd, 2017   #66
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Passenger vehicle sales have bern around a million a year for several years, more than enough to support a local industry. What killed it was government policy, an extended, so sitting mining construction boom and mismanagement by Ford and GM, pure and simple. Pull any one of those factors out and the industry would not only have survived, it would have been profitable and ramped up significantly post mining boom.

For example VE commodore was specifically designed to be stretched and shortened as required to produce an even greater variety of models than the preceding VZ with its sedan, stretched sedan, wagon coupe, ute, 1 Tonne Ute, crew cab ute and AWD models. VE was the platform used for the reborn Camaro but back in Aus where Mooney replaced Hannenburger, after years of perfecting building niche models on a common line, the local line up was cut to the bone and guess what, sales dropped. Ford also was building niche models and also planned to start building Focus locally while the Australian designed and developed Ford Ranger was also a distinct possibility for local production.

What happened, well, mining construction boom, stacked un-productivity commission, GFC, brain dead anti local manufacturing free trade agreements (This built cars are sold in Aust with no tariff or specific sales tax while Australian cars sold in Thailand had a 100% sales tax), opening the Australian automotive market to dumping, including models that did not meet Australian design rules. Basically the local industry was exposed to over a decade of unfair competition from operators who did not need to follow the same rules while battling the effects of an unnaturally high dollar and the financial troubles of their parent organisations.

I am waiting for the cries of despair when not only the Korean cars, but Thai and Chinese ones become an unaffordable luxury once local production is totally dead and the dollar drops to more traditional levels.
A million sales annually doesnt mean anything when it's split between dozens of different brands and models. It's generally accepted for a car factory to remain viable they have to produce 150,000 vehicles minimum annually.

That being said not saying it wasn't viable just that the local market was not to be relied on to save it, Too much choice for so few customers leading to fewer unit sales of each individual type. Export's where were it would have survived had the government supported them through the high dollar phase post GFC (Annoying to beleive that we lost a number of companies due to the high dollar because we actually did so well economically ugh) at which point today with the dollar below 80c USD would have made them profitable (just).

That all being said that is just applying band aids to long term issues, The government never had the will or vision to try and grow the industry as a larger industry would drive down unit cost making export's even more competative.

As to rules, they actually did have the same safety requirements as Australian built cars.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old January 3rd, 2017   #67
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As to rules, they actually did have the same safety requirements as Australian built cars.

Just my 2 cents.
Imported vehicles are meant to comply, unfortunately many don't. Sometimes it is down to inexperience and not actually understanding the requirements as seen with Greatwalls seat belt issue, they simply did not understand the requirements of ADR 3 and 5, and accordingly the restrain devices fitted to their vehicles were dangerously non compliant. More seriously other non conformances are more serious as they are deliberate cost cutting that sees either minimum compliance to the letter but not the spirit of the requirement, even worse are the fraudulent claims of compliance where the manufacturer has deliberately falsified test results.

Personally I believe any brand caught falsifying or cheating on test results should have the certification of every product they have on the Australian market revoked and not reinstated until they have fully paid all fines, compensated all affected parties and provided full access to all their test facilities and records to ensure compliance. If you cheat you get banned and potentially never do business here again, not just cars, everything, as I have also encountered fraudulent behavior by defence and other contractors / suppliers over the years.
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Old January 3rd, 2017   #68
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Sorry Volk - Australians chose not to buy Australian vehicles because they preferred the variety of 4 cylinder cars that were built overseas. Also there was the wages. Here in Adelaide a first year Holden worker could earn $60K/ year which was more than a first year teacher could earn after doing 3 years at Uni - I heard the Holden wages direct from GMH workers. That shows how the Unions plucked the Goose that laid the golden egg. The only way car building was sustainable was if $A = $0.7US, but once we hit $.90 and above we were uncompetitive.
Did you even read my post? Focus was meant to be built here but went to Thailand, in part because of the f'd up FTA we signed with them. Same with the Australian designed Ranger ute and Everest SUV, while most Australian built cars were in BMW / Mercedes price ranges due to a sales tax the Thai government introduced to circumvent the FTA and protect their auto industry. Holden stuffed up building the Cruze instead of the Astra, while Toyota moved corolla to a highly subsidised plant in South Africa while continuing the four cylinder Camry locally along side the Aurion, they were meant to add Kluger to local production but government policy discouraged this.

On the wages front $60k is not an unreasonable salary for an auto worker, having worked in a variety of technical and engineering roles in the industry, including time at one of the major assembly plants as a production engineer on a particular project I can assure you most of the assembly workers earn their money. The question mark I have is over some of the pandas, including some supervisors and managers as well as the happy little vegemite's who had particularly cruisy roles and high salaries. If anything a lot of them were under paid compared to other industries I could think of, financial services anyone?
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Old January 3rd, 2017   #69
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V, I can see some similarities in our auto sectors. We do have an advantage in production numbers and many vehicles are exported to the US market. We also have a huge parts manufacturing sector feeding the auto companies. However Mexico is gaining workshare from both the US and Canada. GM and Chrysler management are second rate. In 10 years our industry will be in decline. Trump may speed that up (along with other industries as well).
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Old January 4th, 2017   #70
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Did you even read my post? Focus was meant to be built here but went to Thailand, in part because of the f'd up FTA we signed with them.
That's untrue, the Australian govt gave Ford a $200m subsidy to set production of the Focus in Australia, Ford then decided to use the funding on the diesel Territory and the four cylinder Falcon, Focus was sourced from Germany then changed to Thailand in 2012. With Falcon production droipping like a stone the 40,000 plus Focus's Ford was going to produce probably would have allowed production to continue for a while longer.

But really the writing was on the wall for Austrialia vehicle production when Mitsuibishi stopped production, it was like the domino effect, with fewer vehicles being produced it had a significant effect on the component supply industry forcing prices up, making production of vehicles even more expensive, also not having a large export market for Aussie product didn't help.
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Old January 4th, 2017   #71
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This is a thread about RAN Future Frigate Updates, disscusion and News, not Aussie vehicle manufacturing. If you want to have a discussion on that start a thread in the Intros and Off Topics forum rather than derailing this one. Derailing threads with Aussie car manufacturing discussions is starting to become a habit which needs to cease.
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Old January 4th, 2017   #72
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This is a thread about RAN Future Frigate Updates, disscusion and News, not Aussie vehicle manufacturing. If you want to have a discussion on that start a thread in the Intros and Off Topics forum rather than derailing this one. Derailing threads with Aussie car manufacturing discussions is starting to become a habit which needs to cease.
My apologies this has gotten out of hand and was only intended as a side comment that the Australian government not only had the money to do better by the RAN pre GFC but could have future proofed the economy, including saving the automotive industry instead of buying an additional term or two in power.

Last edited by MrConservative; January 4th, 2017 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Decorum
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Old January 4th, 2017   #73
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thread closed so as to let some air out of the balloon for a while

it would useful if everyone could go and delete the OT comments
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