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Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

This is a discussion on Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Belesari I have wondered if maybe the PN could do a Carrier conversion on a cargo ship. ...


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Old May 24th, 2011   #106
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Originally Posted by Belesari View Post
I have wondered if maybe the PN could do a Carrier conversion on a cargo ship. Just launches light aircraft for coin and patrol and helicopters.

Wouldnt have to cost much.
I would think, that it would be a waste of money, since the Philipines already have one of the very few airstrips in the Spratly Islands on the Pagasa/Thitu islands, that can take larger military airplanes.

Arial picturebof the island:
Spratly Islands - Google Maps
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Old May 25th, 2011   #107
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Its obvious that the PN couldn't win any kind of battle against the chinese, what im saying is that it should have some ships in the area to monitor these kind of agressions.

@wanabe it would be stupid to shoot down those jets. we dont want to start a war just because of that. But if there were PN ships around the area supporting those patrol aircraft, those chinese .... would think twice before bullying us.

The chinese are getting away with these kinds of agression because its clear that the PN cant do anything about it even if they wanted to. Its like a child vs a grown man with a gun.

Last edited by niftyDolphine; May 25th, 2011 at 06:12 AM.
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Old May 25th, 2011   #108
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Its obvious that the PN couldn't win any kind of battle against the chinese, what im saying is that it should have some ships in the area to monitor these kind of agressions.

@wanabe it would be stupid to shoot down those jets. we dont want to start a war just because of that. But if there were PN ships around the area supporting those patrol aircraft, those chinese ******** would think twice before bullying us.

The chinese are getting away with these kinds of agression because its clear that the PN cant do anything about it even if they wanted to. Its like a child vs a grown man with a gun.
Please note the *, I would suggest going back and editing such language out, before a Mod comes and does it for you. DT does have rules about being respectful of other nationalities.

Having said that, even if the AFP had a half dozen modern frigates, armed with a current SAM system like ESSM, Aster 15 or 30, or SM-2, they would realistically only be useful in self-defence, and if the PRC/aircraft chose to begin an engagement. If the AFP attempted to 'push back' and the PRC chose to engage, there is little the AFP could do. At least with the current status quo, it is virtually impossible to cast the Phillippines as an aggressor in some sort of disagreement about the Spratleys.

As for the AFP purchasing surplus P-3 Orions from AMARC and refurbishing them... I do not think that is a good or viable idea. At present, the most recently built P-3 Orions are two decades old. Those available from the boneyard are most likely going to be some of the much older P-3A or B model Orions, with production dates likely from the early 60's. By way of example, IIRC one of the P-3K Orions in service with the RNZAF is an ex-RAAF P-3B Orion which entered RAAF service ~1967... Between the fact that the aircraft are going to be decades old, and having been sitting in the boneyard, work would need to be done to refurbish them to a flyable state, nevermind work being required to deliver a useful MPA capability. Not to mention the aircraft itself is fast set to become an orphan with air forces set to retire the design over the next decade as the P-8 Poseidon enters service. Between these factors, as well as the significant costs to purchase the capability and equally significant if not greater costs to maintain the capability, it does not seem to be a good idea.

Also, while someone within the Phillipine Navy might have stated a requirement for submarines, there are (IMO at least) far more important and realistic needs which need to be met first, and would not require anywhere near the level of funding. Remember, the Phillipines Navy does not currently have a submarine force. In order for it to establish one, not only would the actual sub/subs need to be purchase, but ALL the requisite infrastructure would also need to be developed. This means the appropriate sort of dockyard facilities to conduct maintenance and repairs. The correct procedures and protocols to determine what needs to be maintained/replaced and when. Also crew training schools need to be developed to provide ongoing crews for the sub/subs after they enter service. An agreement could be arranged so that an initial crew intake could be trained by another country, but that is not (again IMO) a viable ongoing solution.

As for the idea of the AFP purchasing some smaller MPA for use, that is a very good idea. The question does still arise however if the AFP could afford to make the purchase, and/or once the purchase was completed, would there be sufficient funding to properly maintain and operate the aircraft. As mentioned previously, the cost for a CN-235MPA worked out to ~USD$23 mil. per aircraft in a relatively recent South Korean contract. Could the AFP afford to commit to a contract for USD$100 mil. for four MPA aircraft, and if the AFP could afford that, could it afford to also meet the cost to operate and maintain the MPA?

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Old May 25th, 2011   #109
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Chinese jet fighters(Mig27) recently harassed Philippine patrol aircraft in the disputed Spratly Islands. The Philippines have no way of stopping this; its better to buy OPV that have SAMs to defend against these. The PN should prioritize acquiring ships that could be used to defend against this kind of Chinese aggression. A PN submarine would be an offensive platform
China does not operate Mig-27s.( at least not to my knowledge)


On Topic. The Banlgadeshi navy is going for submarines at a similar date( by 2019).

We have already sent crews to train on Turkish Type-209s and Chinese Song class subs, has the PN taken any such initiatives? Operating a sub is a lot harder than it sounds, it will cost a lot to build sub bases and proper infrastructures to support subs can PN afford it? (we are getting help from South Korea, Turkey and China on that)

Also I do not know the extent of relation ship between Phillipines and Germany and Turkey, but the the PN could also look at upgraded ex-Type-209s from the German and Turkish navies like us.
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Old May 25th, 2011   #110
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@devil they were mig29s, just checked the news again on "Chinese jet fighters harassed two Philippine Air Force (PAF) planes"

@Todjaeger thanks for the heads up man, didnt realize my mistake;

but I stand at what i said, Chinese armed forces are bullying everybody in the Spratlys, not just the PN. And nobody's stopping them. Submarines are not a priority at this time.

So it seems that this will just be another patrol vessel. It would be great if it has air search radars to scan the skies in the Spratly's area. This will provide info whether chinese planes indeed violate Philippine airspace.

Last edited by OPSSG; June 27th, 2011 at 09:59 PM. Reason: Combined into 1 post
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Old May 25th, 2011
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Old May 25th, 2011   #111
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CN-235s from Indonesia fitted with a Thales AMASCOS sensor fit, IMO would be the perfect solution for the Philippines. They would be cheaper to operate than surplus USN P-3s and training including simulator time, could be done in at Bandung where the aircraft is made. Either that or get some surplus C-130H's, which are much 'younger' than surplus P-3s, and integrate them with a surface search radar.

Next on the list should be a class of OPV's armed with nothing more than a single main gun and secondary guns and fitted with a surface search radar, an electro-optical sight and a landing deck.. Apart from the costs involved, we can forget about sexy stuff like missiles and ESM, as the main priority is to have a better capability in monitoring national waters, not engaging in a shooting war. If the intention is to have these built in a foreign shipyard, any South Korean shipyard could do it much cheaper than a Western shipyard. Off course this all depends on the government having the political will to fund these purchaces as well as increasing the size of the budget to cope with the training and support costs.

Given the peacetime challenges it faces, I really can't think of anything the PN needs more urgently than OPVs and MPA's. For closer inshore work, around the islands in Mindanao, CB-90s would be perfect for routine patrols.
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Old May 25th, 2011   #112
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So it seems that this will just be another patrol vessel. It would be great if it has air search radars to scan the skies in the Spratly's area. This will provide info whether chinese planes indeed violate Philippine airspace.
I think you have made your point regarding airspace intrusions by foreign aircraft. In fact on another thread as well regarding Philipines matters. We try to keep things which are potentially imflamatory under control around here or the warnings start to become sanctions.

It seems that Patrol vessels are something the PN actually needs.
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Old May 25th, 2011   #113
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CN-235s from Indonesia fitted with a Thales AMASCOS sensor fit, IMO would be the perfect solution for the Philippines. They would be cheaper to operate than surplus USN P-3s and training including simulator time, could be done in at Bandung where the aircraft is made. Either that or get some surplus C-130H's, which are much 'younger' than surplus P-3s, and integrate them with a surface search radar.
The above is what I would consider a reasonable/good choice for MPA in AFP service. Keep in mind though it would cost ~USD$24 mil. per aircraft to purchase, and then there would need to be additional and ongoing costs for operations and system sustainment. Not sure whether or not something like that would fit within the AFP budget.

As for newer/additional naval vessels... Not sure whether or not more OPV-type vessels are really called for, or smaller IPVs, or whether significant replacement of both are needed. No question that much of the ocean-going Phillipine Navy is old, with a number of ex-WWII and post-war designs. Does anyone know what areas the AFP currently has the most difficulty handling patrolling and enforcement? Is it within the EEZ, or is there a need for more intra-island patrolling and interception?

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Old May 25th, 2011   #114
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"NEED" I agree with you 100%...The AFP is really running out of time, No more IFS or BUTS! It's not guaranteed that the US will support RP in case an armed hostilities do breakout on the disputed South China Sea Islands!
yeah, the 1951 Mutual Defense Treaty we have with the US only covers Philippine Territory by 1951. We only started claiming the Spratlys sometime in 1970s, so the US apparently cannot be dragged into protecting us in case something happens.

Last edited by kvnsoon; May 25th, 2011 at 09:38 PM. Reason: words were omitted.
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Old May 25th, 2011
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Old May 26th, 2011   #115
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@MrConservative my apologies for being direct but nobody likes there country to be bullied. The main purpose of my posts is to cite the actual situation that the PN is in.
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Old May 26th, 2011   #116
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"NEED" I agree with you 100%...The AFP is really running out of time, No more IFS or BUTS! It's not guaranteed that the US will support RP in case an armed hostilities do breakout on the disputed South China Sea Islands!
As a souvereign nation we have the responsibility to defend our own in case of war, our government has the responsibility to provide equipment for our fighting force so that they can do their job,
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Old May 26th, 2011   #117
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Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

Merged the various threads discussing items of interest regarding the Philippine Navy and Philippine maritime topics. Please post any new items which are relevant within this thread.
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Old May 26th, 2011
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Old May 29th, 2011   #118
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Netherlands Announces Deep Military Cuts

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The Netherlands will cut thousands of defense jobs and scrap a significant chunk of military equipment under a restructuring that should help restore public finances, the Dutch government said Friday.

Under the revamp, the Netherlands will cut 12,000 military jobs, about 17% of its total staff, and retire 19 F-16 fighter jets, four minesweepers and two tank battalions.

It will also cut spending on new Joint Strike Fighter jets that are currently developed by Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT). The budget for these aircraft will be cut by EUR1.7 billion to EUR4.5 billion.

The measures should result in EUR1 billion in savings by 2014, the Dutch government said in a statement Friday.

"The cuts are at odds with the unrest in the world. The culprit is the global economic crisis," Defense Minister Hans Hillen said on a video posted on the ministry's website.

The Duth Defense restructuring will become clear on July 1. Untill then many military personnel will live a life of uncertainty.
The 4 Dutch Minesweepers that will be decommissioned might be the
? These minesweepers can become patrol ships and can be armed for anti-submarine warfare. The Philippine Navy has a number of former minesweepers converted to patrol ships but without ASW capability.
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Old June 2nd, 2011   #119
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US cites ‘re-energized’ relations
BY JENNIE L. ILUSTRE

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WASHINGTON D.C. – The United States is "very pleased" with the re-energized relations with the Philippines as shown by discussions of top US and PHL officials on issues such as "maritime security and a range of economic initiatives."

This was revealed by Kurt M. Campbell, Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, in a speech Tuesday at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) here.

Campbell mentioned the Philippines first in "a country-by-country evaluation" in a speech on the US outlook in Southeast and North East Asia, highlighting the US "policy of re-engagement" in the region.

Founded in 1962, CSIS is a bipartisan, nonprofit organization based in the nation’s capital which "seeks to advance global security and prosperity by providing strategic insights and policy solutions to decision-makers."

Campbell’s speech was a preview on the high-level presence of the US in the region’s upcoming events. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will be in Bali, Indonesia, for the 18th Asean Regional Forum in mid-July.

Later this year, President Barack Obama will attend his first East Asia Summit, participate in the third US Asean Summit and host the annual APEC Leaders Summit in Honolulu.

Ambassador Jose L. Cuisia Jr., who was present at Campbell’s Asia overview, said the five-year, $434 million Millennium Challenge Corp. (MCC) anti-poverty grant to the Philippines "is on track."

MCC implementation starts in the Philippines this month. The US has linked release of the grant on the condition of an improved human trafficking record by the Philippines.

Cuisia last week said in a press gathering the Philippines would be purchasing "eight cutters over five years" from the US. The cutters are part of the government-to-government cooperation on heightened Philippines’ coastal watch.

Cuisia formally received the Hamilton class cutter May 13 in California. He said the cutter, named after Philippine hero Gregorio del Pilar, would sail for the Philippines on July 5 and arrive there by August.
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Old June 2nd, 2011
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Old June 2nd, 2011   #120
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That is not an actual photo and therefore should have been mentioned on your post...
Sorry I later found out in Timawa.net that it was an edited picture. But I also found an actual photo of it, it's all white without the USCG markings and colors anymore.
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