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The New Kuznetsov

This is a discussion on The New Kuznetsov within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; The Admiral Kuznetsov will be going into long term refit and modernization allegedly from 2012 to 2017. This is roughly ...


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Old April 2nd, 2010   #1
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The New Kuznetsov

The Admiral Kuznetsov will be going into long term refit and modernization allegedly from 2012 to 2017. This is roughly the same time period in which the new MiG-29K are supposed to enter service with the AVMF, and the new training ground for carrier pilots in the NCMD is to be completed. The weapon systems and electronics of the ship will be replaced entirely. The air-wing is also expected to increase. However it's unclear whether this increase will simply replace the lost airframes (in terms of numbers, as the Su-33 squadron started out with 24 but is now down to 19) or whether this will mean changes to the superstructure to allow it to accommodate a larger air wing.

Lenta.ru lists it as being able to carry 26 Su-33 or MiG-29K fighters, as well as 24 helos, which is different from what it carries right now (12 Su-33, 5 Su-25UTG/UBP, and 24 helos). It's possible that a mistake was made in the numbers by the newspaper.

Lenta.ru: Оружие: Единственный российский авианосец пройдет модернизацию

It's possible that the new systems on it will serve as prototypes for a new indigenous carrier program, which is supposed to start in 2012. Or it may be an indicator that this program has ran into trouble, and the refit is meant to keep the Kuznetsov relevant longer then originally planned.
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Old April 2nd, 2010   #2
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The Admiral Kuznetsov will be going into long term refit and modernization allegedly from 2012 to 2017. This is roughly the same time period in which the new MiG-29K are supposed to enter service with the AVMF, and the new training ground for carrier pilots in the NCMD is to be completed. The weapon systems and electronics of the ship will be replaced entirely. The air-wing is also expected to increase. However it's unclear whether this increase will simply replace the lost airframes (in terms of numbers, as the Su-33 squadron started out with 24 but is now down to 19) or whether this will mean changes to the superstructure to allow it to accommodate a larger air wing.

Lenta.ru lists it as being able to carry 26 Su-33 or MiG-29K fighters, as well as 24 helos, which is different from what it carries right now (12 Su-33, 5 Su-25UTG/UBP, and 24 helos). It's possible that a mistake was made in the numbers by the newspaper.

Lenta.ru: Оружие: Единственный российский авианосец пройдет модернизацию

It's possible that the new systems on it will serve as prototypes for a new indigenous carrier program, which is supposed to start in 2012. Or it may be an indicator that this program has ran into trouble, and the refit is meant to keep the Kuznetsov relevant longer then originally planned.
It's possible that it's not a coincidence that the Mistral purchase coincides with the timing on this refit and maybe the start of the new carrier program. They may be looking into studying the French systems before building their own for the carriers (different ships but some technology should be relevant).
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Old April 2nd, 2010   #3
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The Admiral Kuznetsov will be going into long term refit and modernization allegedly from 2012 to 2017. This is roughly the same time period in which the new MiG-29K are supposed to enter service with the AVMF, and the new training ground for carrier pilots in the NCMD is to be completed. The weapon systems and electronics of the ship will be replaced entirely. The air-wing is also expected to increase. However it's unclear whether this increase will simply replace the lost airframes (in terms of numbers, as the Su-33 squadron started out with 24 but is now down to 19) or whether this will mean changes to the superstructure to allow it to accommodate a larger air wing.

Lenta.ru lists it as being able to carry 26 Su-33 or MiG-29K fighters, as well as 24 helos, which is different from what it carries right now (12 Su-33, 5 Su-25UTG/UBP, and 24 helos). It's possible that a mistake was made in the numbers by the newspaper.

Lenta.ru: Оружие: Единственный российский авианосец пройдет модернизацию

It's possible that the new systems on it will serve as prototypes for a new indigenous carrier program, which is supposed to start in 2012. Or it may be an indicator that this program has ran into trouble, and the refit is meant to keep the Kuznetsov relevant longer then originally planned.
it would actually make sense for China and Russia to cooperate when it comes to revamping Kuznetsov and Varyag, but obviously it's not going to happen.
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Old April 3rd, 2010   #4
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Obviously. Though in that cooperation China would be the junior partner in most areas. I suspect the Varyag will be complete befote the Kuznetsov.
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Old April 7th, 2010   #5
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Varyag won't be ready as a battleship anytime.

Some people surpose that VMF would like to put off Granit from Kuznetsov, redesign angar, put catapult (there is place for it under deck) and refresh its engines or may be put new. Of course change some board systems, may be put S-400F Fort. All these to test systems of perpective AC.
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Old April 7th, 2010   #6
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So do something like the Gorshkov refit to the Kuznetsov? Turn it from an aircraft carrying cruiser into a small aircraft carrier? How many more aircraft do you think it could carry?
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Old April 8th, 2010   #7
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So do something like the Gorshkov refit to the Kuznetsov? Turn it from an aircraft carrying cruiser into a small aircraft carrier? How many more aircraft do you think it could carry?
I woudnt call a refited Kuznetsov carrier for a small aircraft carrier. It would be something between a Charles de Gaulle carrier and a Queen Elizabeth class carrier.
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Old April 13th, 2010   #8
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I woudnt call a refited Kuznetsov carrier for a small aircraft carrier. It would be something between a Charles de Gaulle carrier and a Queen Elizabeth class carrier.
problem with Kuznetsov class is that even though it is a very large carrier, it does not actually carry that many aircraft. I don't know what they will do to increase the hangar space, but we will see. As mentioned earlier, it's quite possible this will help the Russians' future carrier projects like Varyag is doing for China right now.
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Old April 14th, 2010   #9
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The hangar is being increased. That has been confirmed. Probably by removing the Shipwrecks.
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Old April 21st, 2010   #10
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It is possible that Granit system would be withdraw from Kuznetsov. Also measures of redesign of hangar and installing more compact different systems.
Also there is a place for catapults - they were planned to be put. Also MiG-29K is smaller then Flanker.
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Old April 24th, 2010   #11
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And it has been decided. Russia will purchase 26 MiG-29K for the VMF. The first two will arrive this year, the rest will be delivered over 2011-12. Granted that Su-33 service life expires in 2015, and that it's planned to be extended to 2025, this creates a strange situation where both types will be in service.

Lenta.ru: Оружие: ВМФ России купит 26 истребителей МиГ-29К
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Old April 29th, 2010   #12
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of course - 20+ of Su-33 and 26 MiG-29K - it is full airwing of Kuznetsov + Ka-31 and Ka-27PL\PS
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Old April 29th, 2010   #13
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I would be very surprised if the new Kuznetsov will be able to carry 19 Su-33 and 26 MiG-29K. I suspect the 26 will be a complete airwing. Possibly a 24 airwing, with two KUB for training. The extra planes may be retained in case the carrier program does get some go-ahead.
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Old April 30th, 2010   #14
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And it has been decided. Russia will purchase 26 MiG-29K for the VMF. The first two will arrive this year, the rest will be delivered over 2011-12. Granted that Su-33 service life expires in 2015, and that it's planned to be extended to 2025, this creates a strange situation where both types will be in service.

Lenta.ru: Оружие: ВМФ России купит 26 истребителей МиГ-29К
Good news - it seems to me that the 29K is more suited for operating off smaller carriers than the Sukhoi. Why was it decided to go with the SU-33 rather than the MiG-29K in the 1980s? I've heard quite a lot about Sukhoi's political clout having an effect on procurement, was the carrier fighter situation an example of that? From what I understand the SU-33 has problems taking off with heavy fuel/weapons loads, is this still an issue with the MiG? It seems to be an area in which the MiG would have an advantage, but I don't know enough about Russian carrier ops to say.
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Old May 2nd, 2010   #15
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Good news - it seems to me that the 29K is more suited for operating off smaller carriers than the Sukhoi. Why was it decided to go with the SU-33 rather than the MiG-29K in the 1980s? I've heard quite a lot about Sukhoi's political clout having an effect on procurement, was the carrier fighter situation an example of that? From what I understand the SU-33 has problems taking off with heavy fuel/weapons loads, is this still an issue with the MiG? It seems to be an area in which the MiG would have an advantage, but I don't know enough about Russian carrier ops to say.
I don't see how Mig-29K could ever have better range * payload than su-33. So, it's a choice between getting quantity vs quality when it comes down to equipping Mig-29K or Su-33. Of course, the other issue is that Mig-29K would be more easily maintained and cost effective for Russia, since India is also operating it. Whereas for su-33, they'd have to reopen its production line, which costs a lot of money.
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