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Modern CIWS systems

This is a discussion on Modern CIWS systems within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I like the looks of the KASHTAN-M. It's like a dual Vulcan with RAM installed. Three in one... http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kvnk/kashtan_m.htm What ...


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Old December 10th, 2006   #1
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Modern CIWS systems

I like the looks of the KASHTAN-M. It's like a dual Vulcan with RAM installed.
Three in one...

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kvnk/kashtan_m.htm

What do you guys think?
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Old December 10th, 2006   #2
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Sure it's a nice CIWS...
I'm curious to compare that kind of system with the efficientcy of a couple of 76mm SR with a PDMS like Mistral IR or VL Seawolf...
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Old December 10th, 2006   #3
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Originally Posted by Big-E View Post
I like the looks of the KASHTAN-M. It's like a dual Vulcan with RAM installed.
Three in one...

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kvnk/kashtan_m.htm

What do you guys think?
PLAN wasn't that impressed by its performance when they sent people down to Russia to see its test firing and such.
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Old December 10th, 2006   #4
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the Indian Navy seemed to approve of them isnt that the CIWS they installed on their Talwar class guided missile frigates if it is they look even cooler close up ive seen them on the INS Tabar
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Old December 11th, 2006   #5
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Mixing short range SAMs with fast guns into a combined CIWS is becoming quite fashionable lately... Oto Melara of Italy's Finmeccanica has just presented at Bourget a prototype mixing 25mm CIWS with a module for 4 or 6 short range SAMs.
However I'm still a fan of pure SAM (as with RAM) or of heavier calibre guided ammunition guns (as with Vulcano-Strales 76/62 SR with ER ammunition) since the good old "wall of fire" argument 2 or 3 km away from the ship doesn't convince me in the age of very "smart" hypersonic cruise missiles with big warheads that can do a lot of damage even by exploding a km away from the ship...

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Old December 12th, 2006   #6
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PLAN wasn't that impressed by its performance when they sent people down to Russia to see its test firing and such.
They had the system installed on their latest Sovremenny so they can't be that unimpressed.
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Old December 12th, 2006   #7
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They had the system installed on their latest Sovremenny so they can't be that unimpressed.
Besides, they really don't have much of a choice, do they... the best Russian CIWS is Kashtan. Unless the PLAN finds a way out of military embargoes and manages to procure Western systems such as RAM, Sadral, Goalkeeper, Phalanx or the Strales/Vulcano system.
Btw I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of local copy of the systems listed above emerging from Chinese defence industries in some time

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Old December 12th, 2006   #8
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Besides, they really don't have much of a choice, do they... the best Russian CIWS is Kashtan. Unless the PLAN finds a way out of military embargoes and manages to procure Western systems such as RAM, Sadral, Goalkeeper, Phalanx or the Strales/Vulcano system.
Btw I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of local copy of the systems listed above emerging from Chinese defence industries in some time

cheers
They do produce their own CIWS system, known as the Type 730. It has a very similar appearance to the Goalkeeper, although they say it has some French SAMOS roots. Currently the system is installed aboard the 052B, 052C and possibly 051C destroyers. As to why the system is not used on the Sovres, the only explanation I can think of is that the Russians won't allow it. A contract in 1993 also allowed China to produce AK630 locally.

With that said, they have no shipborn missile/gun system like Kashtan at the moment.
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Old December 12th, 2006   #9
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They had the system installed on their latest Sovremenny so they can't be that unimpressed.
well, I haven't seen any kind of Chinese system installed on Russian platforms. They normally just get them asap. If you notice, stuff like shtil,ka-28,MR-90, bandstand from Sovs have all basically been bought or copied for other PLAN combat ships, but Kashtan hasn't.

PLAN is far more satisfied with the performance of type 730 CIWS than kashtan.
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Old December 12th, 2006   #10
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They do produce their own CIWS system, known as the Type 730. It has a very similar appearance to the Goalkeeper, although they say it has some French SAMOS roots. Currently the system is installed aboard the 052B, 052C and possibly 051C destroyers. As to why the system is not used on the Sovres, the only explanation I can think of is that the Russians won't allow it. A contract in 1993 also allowed China to produce AK630 locally.

With that said, they have no shipborn missile/gun system like Kashtan at the moment.
Thks a lot, very interesting. It's true it looks a lot like Goalkeeper !!

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Old December 21st, 2006   #11
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well, I haven't seen any kind of Chinese system installed on Russian platforms. They normally just get them asap. If you notice, stuff like shtil,ka-28,MR-90, bandstand from Sovs have all basically been bought or copied for other PLAN combat ships, but Kashtan hasn't.

PLAN is far more satisfied with the performance of type 730 CIWS than kashtan.
Kashtan WAS bought by PLAN (sovremenny mod). So, you're saying that Kashtan isn't good enough because it wasn't copied by the chinese, right? Did it ever occur to you there may be other reasons why it was not copied? And who says all the other stuff was copied? Thus far, with exception of Ak630 and AK-176 no weaponry was copied. And as far as radars are concerned, while there may a chinese radar that look similar to to Fregat MAE, this does not mean it's a copy. Likewise Bandstand.
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Old December 22nd, 2006   #12
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Kashtan WAS bought by PLAN (sovremenny mod). So, you're saying that Kashtan isn't good enough because it wasn't copied by the chinese, right? Did it ever occur to you there may be other reasons why it was not copied? And who says all the other stuff was copied? Thus far, with exception of Ak630 and AK-176 no weaponry was copied. And as far as radars are concerned, while there may a chinese radar that look similar to to Fregat MAE, this does not mean it's a copy. Likewise Bandstand.
I'm saying that's one of the evidences. I'm saying that China sent people down to Russia to see Kashtan and they weren't too impressed by its performance. The fact that you have missiles and gun doesn't make it superior to other contemporary CIWS like Phalanx and Goalkeeper.
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Old January 10th, 2007   #13
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I like the looks of the KASHTAN-M. It's like a dual Vulcan with RAM installed.
Three in one...

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kvnk/kashtan_m.htm

What do you guys think?
Well,

I reckon the concept is a good one... Particularly if it include this beasty

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/i.../wm_MK30_2.jpg

700rnds/minute and very simple to operate, so you lay 4 mk30-2 in a quad mount with a quad RAM

for smaller vessels you could go with the stinger and twin mount combo.. something like that.

Anyway, in my book the Mk30-2 is the gun to beat in the 30mm category. Its FSAPDS could take out any forseeable Anti Shipping Missile uparmored to the whazoo. Whereas the Russian 30mms suffer from lack of muzzle velocity.

cheers

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Old January 17th, 2007   #14
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new Bolides based system

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_for...0111_1_n.shtml
"Rheinmetall, Saab offer naval ASRAD-R

By Miroslav Gyurosi

Rheinmetall Defence Electronics and Saab Bofors Dynamics are jointly developing a naval air-defence version of the Atlas Short-Range Air Defence (ASRAD-R) light surface-to-air missile (SAM) system. It will face competition from a naval version of the Poprad, a lightweight system based on the ZM Mesko Grom infrared-guided SAM.

The new ASRAD-R Naval Air Defence System combines a remotely controlled ASRAD weapon pedestal carrying four Bolide laser beam-riding SAMs (a further development of the highly successful RBS 70 Mk 2) and an electro-optic sensor package. Suitable for use on all sizes of warship, it is intended to provide a defence against low-flying fixed-wing and rotary-wing threats.

Polish company CNPEP Radwar has been promoting a proposed naval version of its land-based Poprad, a vehicle-based short-range SAM system whose launch pedestal carries four ready-to-fire Grom missiles - a weapon originally developed as a man-portable air-defence system (MANPADS).

Although CNPEP Radwar has displayed a scale model of a ship's bow fitted with a navalised Poprad launcher installation, work on this proposed variant is still at a very early stage.

171 of 485 words
© 2006 Jane's Information Group
[End of non-subscriber extract]
"


Given that the ADF already operates the Bolides version of the missile, does this system become a possible contender for the CIWS for AWD/ANZACs? (Where previously Mistral and RAMs were the only rumoured contenders)
I don't know whether the RAN has or has not decided whether ISSM alone (in the case of the ANZACs) is sufficient for the job.
I do note that this system doesn't seem suitable for taking out incoming ASMs and I'm unsure of where this ranks in terms of desirability for the RAN.
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Old January 17th, 2007   #15
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Well,

I reckon the concept is a good one... Particularly if it include this beasty

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/i.../wm_MK30_2.jpg

700rnds/minute and very simple to operate, so you lay 4 mk30-2 in a quad mount with a quad RAM

for smaller vessels you could go with the stinger and twin mount combo.. something like that.

Anyway, in my book the Mk30-2 is the gun to beat in the 30mm category. Its FSAPDS could take out any forseeable Anti Shipping Missile uparmored to the whazoo. Whereas the Russian 30mms suffer from lack of muzzle velocity.

cheers

w
I'd be curious to know what you think of the effectiveness of the 35mm with AHEAD ammunition in comparison to the 30mm? And why choose 30mm over the 35mm?
Either the rheinmetall twin mount
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/i...42FM0502-1.jpg
or the revolver based Millenium
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/i...1FM0602-36.jpg

Granted, the 35mm AHEAD ammunition adds a level of complexity with regards the fusing of the rounds (but as I understand it, this is relatively easy these days) and a Millenium type solution probably wouldn't scale down for smaller vessels(?)
I just found a link which suggests that the 30mm round is getting an airburst capability. AND is being qualified for the Mk30-2!
http://defense-update.com/products/a/ahead.htm

So which 30mm round would be more desirable for CIWS use, ABM or fsapds? Maybe the ability to quickly switch between the two (dual feed)?

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