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Modern CIWS systems

This is a discussion on Modern CIWS systems within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by rossfrb_1 The US have developed the competing AHEAD ammunition but I only know of its use in ...


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Old April 16th, 2007   #46
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Originally Posted by rossfrb_1 View Post
The US have developed the competing AHEAD ammunition but I only know of its use in 35mm. However I would think that upsizing into a 57mm design would be relatively easy for the US.
rb
AHEAD is a German concept developed by Rheinmetall (or rather its sub-company OerlikonContraves).
The US doesn't use AHEAD (or a 35mm gun). Lockheed-Martin and the ONR mounted the Rheinmetall 35mm GDM-008 (Millenium Gun) using AHEAD on a single technology demonstrator ship for tests.
AHEAD is also available in an experimental 30x173 version, btw, using different pellet sizes and numbers.
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Old April 16th, 2007   #47
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Originally Posted by rossfrb_1 View Post
Presumably using 3P ammunition?
Can you elaborate more on the mount and combat system used?
What nationality was involved?
The USN have adopted the 57mm for some of their vessels, but 3P is made by Bofors (i think).rb

Nope, the Gun was loaded & used Practice Ammo at the time, as H.E. is just a tadd EXPENSIVE !

This some time between 1997 & 99, during proving trials, when the gun was integrated with the Combat system, on two ships for Malaysia.(Link #1)

Bofors where involved at the time, but Bofors is now owned (in some/most respects) by BAE Systems. (Link #2)

If you goto the 2nd link, there are additional links there for the 3P Ammo that can be used by the mount & the variation of this mount that will be used by the US Coastguard.


Links:

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lekiu/


http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsSe..._mk_three.html

Hope this answers your questions...

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Old April 17th, 2007   #48
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Originally Posted by kato View Post
AHEAD is a German concept developed by Rheinmetall (or rather its sub-company OerlikonContraves).
The US doesn't use AHEAD (or a 35mm gun). Lockheed-Martin and the ONR mounted the Rheinmetall 35mm GDM-008 (Millenium Gun) using AHEAD on a single technology demonstrator ship for tests.
AHEAD is also available in an experimental 30x173 version, btw, using different pellet sizes and numbers.
Yes my bad. I was aware that Oerlikon Contraves had participated in the development. For some reason I thought that the USN were also development partners.


rb
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Old April 18th, 2007   #49
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Yes my bad. I was aware that Oerlikon Contraves had participated in the development. For some reason I thought that the USN were also development partners.
Lockheed-Martin was a development partner for the Millenium Gun (mostly for the sensors and mount though). AHEAD itself is a pure Oerlikon Contraves development.
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Old April 18th, 2007   #50
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Lockheed-Martin was a development partner for the Millenium Gun (mostly for the sensors and mount though). AHEAD itself is a pure Oerlikon Contraves development.
Thanks for that.
In an earlier post you mentioned an experimental AHEAD round with different pellet size and number. Would that be a larger pellet size to defeat possible armoured missiles etc?
For some reason I vaguely remember reading about something like that but can't remember if it was AHEAD or 3P.

rb
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Old April 19th, 2007   #51
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Thanks for that.
In an earlier post you mentioned an experimental AHEAD round with different pellet size and number. Would that be a larger pellet size to defeat possible armoured missiles etc?
For some reason I vaguely remember reading about something like that but can't remember if it was AHEAD or 3P.

rb
basically, AHEAD is available in two pellet sizes (each pellet is a small cylinder). iirc the larger ones are 3.5mm diameter, the smaller ones 1.6mm diameter. something like that. the 30mm version is only available in the smaller pellet size, the 35mm version is available in both. trials have found that the small pellet versions are not as effective vs missiles, and largely ineffective against "hard" ground targets.
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Old April 24th, 2007   #52
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The Russians will probably puke blood when they see this. Is there anything the Chinese military won't copy off of?

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4510/300495wc7.jpg
It s a hailstorm-1 perhaps, and first appeared on the 2007 Abu Dhabi military show.multiple guidence-control system include radar and photoelectric detector was adopted to give a more efficient kill.It was suspected that QW-3air-defence missile and 630 gun was installed on hailstorm.

However, little was the further informtion revealed, even the name of the producer is still a enigma to me.
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Old April 24th, 2007
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Old May 12th, 2007   #53
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I personaly belive that the 57mm is better than the 76mm at defeating missiles
Why ? I do not know what is best, but Norway did choose Oto 76mSR as the only self defense weapon at sea on the Skjold class, in competition with Bofors 57mm. The same gun is used on the Nansen class frigates, and they are not equipped with CIWS.

Perhaps they think the new Davide system, with guided projectile, can do the job as CIWS. Otobreda claims that average number of rounds per engagement = 3.

otobreda.it/products/schedule.asp?id=prod_naval_development_davide_ge
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Old October 11th, 2007   #54
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Personally, I would go for the Goalkeeper (and yes, I'm Dutch ).

If you already have SM2 or 3 and ESSM and they some how failed to do their job, why thrust yet another missle for the last defence?

Look at the Royal Navy, they learned the anti-ship missle danger the hard way. Their carriers had Phalanx, but since now have Goalkeepers...

Tests in US (somewhere in the early 90's) showed the supremacy of Goalkeeper over Phalanx clearly.

That guns simply rules! (in A-10 as well)
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Old October 11th, 2007   #55
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No their carriers had Goalkeeper but they phased them out in favor of Phalanx.
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/2F02C...ir_defence.pdf

Goalkeeper is a nice system, however it eats up space on the ship (goes down 2 decks), while Phalanx doesn't, you just bolt it in place and hook up a cooling line from the ships fire main.
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Old October 12th, 2007   #56
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Oh, I didn't know that.
I was referring to the change from Phalanx to Goalkeeper of the HMS Invincible and Illustrious. Both had there two Phalanx systems changed for three Goalkeepers (somewhere in the 80's?). Apparently, the Royal Navy has them re-changed. Although I understand the reason, personally, I have no doubt of the superiority of the Goalkeeper. Range, Hits on target and the amount of ammunition is far better. As demonstrated by tests in the US.

I have seen Goalkeepers at Thales (former Holland Signaal) who manufactures the Goalkeeper. The part that goes below the deck is indeed huge! But… I wouldn’t like to reload the Phalanx under battle conditions! I’d take the more expensive and room-consuming Goalkeeper.
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Old December 23rd, 2007   #57
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Even with a Type 45 escort, I think that CVF should have CAMM and 3x Goalkeeper at the very least. Ideally:

16 MBDA Aster15 (PAAMS/Sampson)
8x MBDA quad-packed CAMM
4x BAE bofors 57mm CIWS
4x Thales Goalkeeper 30MM CIWS
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Old March 16th, 2008   #58
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Smile

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Apart from the fact it is a 4 barrelled 25mm CIWS I don't know much about the Sea Zenith. Turk, are you, or any other members for that matter, able to tell us how well it has it performed in service with the Turkish Navy? Also, has it been adopted by any other navy?

Cheers

The turkish navy has also adopted the phalanx system, there is a video on youtube that shows the sea zenith being tested solo, and in combination with SAMs, turkish frigates use 3 sea seniths each, 1 at the front and 2 at the rear, along 8 SAM pods...TCG KEMAL REISS is a good example as there are plenty of pictures, the phalanx systems are being replace by sea zenith on most ships, i still dont know how it perfoms on paper but it is supposed to be a very affective system, but still that is not fact, i will look around
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Old April 15th, 2008   #59
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Why ? I do not know what is best, but Norway did choose Oto 76mSR as the only self defense weapon at sea on the Skjold class, in competition with Bofors 57mm. The same gun is used on the Nansen class frigates, and they are not equipped with CIWS.

Perhaps they think the new Davide system, with guided projectile, can do the job as CIWS. Otobreda claims that average number of rounds per engagement = 3.

otobreda.it/products/schedule.asp?id=prod_naval_development_davide_ge
With the new DAVIDE system, the 76mm has become a very powerful mutli-role weapon, even CIWS. Supposedly the new ammunition created for the Oto Melara 76mm has a range of 30km! That definitely beats the 57mm.

-----JT-----
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Old May 1st, 2008   #60
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With the new DAVIDE system, the 76mm has become a very powerful mutli-role weapon, even CIWS. Supposedly the new ammunition created for the Oto Melara 76mm has a range of 30km! That definitely beats the 57mm.

-----JT-----
30km... that's probaby not a direct fire range and probably not the effective range
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