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This is a discussion on Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by kato They're gonna upgrade Monge in 2009 to track in M51 missile tests. And i think she's ...


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Old March 15th, 2008   #61
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They're gonna upgrade Monge in 2009 to track in M51 missile tests.

And i think she's also still in use to track Arianespace launches occasionally.
Yes, that does not sound like a 100% utilization.
We're speaking of a 22.000 tons ship here.

MN only needs 6 months per year. And Monge would be better than a ferry.
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Old April 7th, 2008   #62
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Singapore's LaFayette have Aster 15 missiles.
How much would it cost to fit that on the MN's LaFayette?
What about Cassard? The ship is not so old, would it be possible to remove the Tartar and put Aster15/30 ?
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Old April 7th, 2008   #63
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What about Cassard? The ship is not so old, would it be possible to remove the Tartar and put Aster15/30 ?
The Cassards are supposed to be replaced in something like 10 years. Would be a waste of money in that context.
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Old April 8th, 2008   #64
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The Cassards are supposed to be replaced in something like 10 years. Would be a waste of money in that context.
Operating a ship with SM-1 missiles for the next 10 years also sounds like a waste of money. If we give him Aster missiles now, they can be later transferred to a LaFayette ship.
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Old April 8th, 2008   #65
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Operating a ship with SM-1 missiles for the next 10 years also sounds like a waste of money. If we give him Aster missiles now, they can be later transferred to a LaFayette ship.
The Cassards should be upgraded with SM-2 missiles. A SM-2 upgrade would be far cheaper than arming the Cassards with Asters.
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Old April 8th, 2008   #66
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Is the Loi de programmation militaire 2009-2013 out yet? Should be either this or next month.
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Old April 8th, 2008   #67
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Is the Loi de programmation militaire 2009-2013 out yet? Should be either this or next month.
I don't know when the White Paper on Defense will be published? I have heard it may be published at the end of April or as late as sometime in June.
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Old April 8th, 2008   #68
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There's a conference discussing it on 29th May, so it should be out by then.
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Old April 11th, 2008   #69
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Here's several quoted paragraphs from Francois Lureau, the Head of the French DGA.

"I don't know what President Nicolas Sarkozy's decisions are, but from what I have heard in Cherbourg, spending will not be cut. "I will not lower my guard," he said. It's hard to be clearer.

"We spend 9.5 billion euros on equipment. We will invest more to get to 11 billion. Financially, can we do it? That's what's behind [Defense Minister] Hervé Morin's cuts in back-office operations, to invest more in equipment. Eleven billion is the order of magnitude. You may have to stretch out this or that program. It's up to the president to decide. A large part of savings will come from the back office and another part from the president's choices in operational forces, where he says, "I want to do more of this, less of that."

source: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...51&c=FEA&s=INT

He said that the decision on the PA2 is up to Sarkozy. It will get built because Sarkozy would get destroyed by backers of the PA2. Last year, I read many articles about, how would the French find money to finance their procurement programs? The French MOD may save about as much as 4.5 billions euros a year by making the staff cuts. The French needed to increase their procurement budget by 5 billion euros a year; inorder, to fund all their procurement programs. They may have gotten the majority of the finances for their procurement programs, but some programs will still be cut. Major items like the FREMM, Barracuda, and Rafale should not face heavy cuts anymore.

Last edited by Spacearrow99; April 12th, 2008 at 01:02 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2008   #70
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Here's several quoted paragraphs from Francois Lureau, the Head of the French DGA.

"I don't know what President Nicolas Sarkozy's decisions are, but from what I have heard in Cherbourg, spending will not be cut. "I will not lower my guard," he said. It's hard to be clearer.

"We spend 9.5 billion euros on equipment. We will invest more to get to 11 billion. Financially, can we do it? That's what's behind [Defense Minister] Hervé Morin's cuts in back-office operations, to invest more in equipment. Eleven billion is the order of magnitude. You may have to stretch out this or that program. It's up to the president to decide. A large part of savings will come from the back office and another part from the president's choices in operational forces, where he says, "I want to do more of this, less of that."

source: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...51&c=FEA&s=INT

He said that the decision on the PA2 is up to Sarkozy. It will get built because Sarkozy would get destroyed by backers of the PA2. Last year, I read many articles about, how would the French find money to finance their procurement programs? The French MOD may save about as much as 4.5 billions euros a year by making the staff cuts. The French needed to increase their procurement budget by 5 billion euros a year; inorder, to fund all their procurement programs. They may have gotten the majority of the finances for their procurement programs, but some programs will still be cut. Major items like the FREMM, Barracuda, and Rafale should not face heavy cuts anymore.
I find Sarkozy's thinking on defence very enigmatic.
He's delaying decisionmaking and being very silent about defence policy.
With a slowing economy the budget deficit is already bound to go beyond the theoretical EU threshold of 3%, so defence procurement will continue to suffer.
I see eventually the PA2 to be confirmed, but all programmes will suffer from a mix of delays and number cuts.
Sarkozy's attempts to find customers for Rafale and FREMM are also somewhat linked to the necessity not to anger the Lagardere, Dassault and other barons of the French defence industry who have supported him. But for instance the FREMM Morocco will now order will clearly come from the 17 supposed to be built for the French Navy.

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Old April 19th, 2008   #71
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I find Sarkozy's thinking on defence very enigmatic.
He's delaying decisionmaking and being very silent about defence policy.
With a slowing economy the budget deficit is already bound to go beyond the theoretical EU threshold of 3%, so defence procurement will continue to suffer.
I see eventually the PA2 to be confirmed, but all programmes will suffer from a mix of delays and number cuts.
Sarkozy's attempts to find customers for Rafale and FREMM are also somewhat linked to the necessity not to anger the Lagardere, Dassault and other barons of the French defence industry who have supported him. But for instance the FREMM Morocco will now order will clearly come from the 17 supposed to be built for the French Navy.

cheers
I think he plan to cut a lot of back-office staff and buy most of the weapons.
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Old April 19th, 2008   #72
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I think he plan to cut a lot of back-office staff and buy most of the weapons.
Yes but as you know cutting public employment in France is a mission impossible, so you have to wait for people to retire and try your luck by not replacing them.
Even worse if the back office staff you are thinking of is civilian, because then we're talking of "fonctionnaires" and of their extremely powerful trade unions.
It's certainly not with a few hundred salaries saved that France will be able to afford all its planned acquisitions...

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Old April 19th, 2008   #73
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Yes but as you know cutting public employment in France is a mission impossible, so you have to wait for people to retire and try your luck by not replacing them.
Even worse if the back office staff you are thinking of is civilian, because then we're talking of "fonctionnaires" and of their extremely powerful trade unions.
It's certainly not with a few hundred salaries saved that France will be able to afford all its planned acquisitions...

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Not a few hundred, 42.000 actually.
I can't post a link but you can google "42.000 défense" to see many newspapers talking about it.
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Old April 19th, 2008   #74
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Not a few hundred, 42.000 actually.
I can't post a link but you can google "42.000 défense" to see many newspapers talking about it.
Here we go with the official interview - thanks for the link.

Hervé Morin veut réformer la Délégation générale pour l’armement
Premier-ministre.gouv.fr
mardi 15 avril 2008, sélectionné par Spyworld
Hervé Morin a accordé, le 15 avril, un entretien au journal La Tribune. Il indique vouloir "que la réorganisation du ministère permette d’améliorer l’efficacité de l’ensemble de la structure" et prévoit une réforme de la DGA.
Lors de l’entretien, Hervé Morin a confirmé que les grandes lignes de la réforme participent à "l’objectif gouvernemental" de la Révision générale des politiques publiques (RGPP).

Les départs en retraite ne seront pas remplacés. Quelque 6000 postes civils et militaires par an sur une période de six à sept ans seront supprimés.

La réforme de la DGA qui verra ses attributions renforcées, devrait être effective au début de l’année 2009. Cette instance sera transformée en direction générale. Le déroulement des programmes d’armement devra également être amélioré. A ce titre, il est envisagé "la création d’un comité ministériel d’investissement" présidé par le ministre de la Défense.

Rappelant que le budget de la Défense a augmenté d’un milliard et demi d’euros entre 2002 et 2007, le ministre souhaite inclure dans la conduite des programmes "l’idée de stricte suffisance technologique et l’exportabilité de matériel". La DGA se verra confier l’instruction des dossiers d’autorisation d’exportation jusqu’ici répartis dans deux services différents au sein du ministère.

Dans la perspective d’un marché européen, Hervé Morin évoque la nécessité d’encourager une politique industrielle en développant des partenariats : "Il est clair que nous avons besoin d’avoir une réflexion à l’échelle européenne et pas seulement au niveau franco-français. Nous entretenons un dialogue avec les britanniques qui représentent l’essentiel de l’industrie d’armement en Europe. Il le faut aussi avec l’Allemagne et l’Italie", a conclu le ministre.


So yes it claims 6000 less personnel by year for 6-7 years, basically by not replacing retiring personnel. I wonder if he's talking civilian or military personnel or both. Given current salaries we're talking of approx 250 million euro saving per year supposing they all leave the 1st day of the new fiscal year. I'm curious to see this materialize ...

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Old April 19th, 2008   #75
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Yes but as you know cutting public employment in France is a mission impossible, so you have to wait for people to retire and try your luck by not replacing them.
Even worse if the back office staff you are thinking of is civilian, because then we're talking of "fonctionnaires" and of their extremely powerful trade unions.
It's certainly not with a few hundred salaries saved that France will be able to afford all its planned acquisitions...

cheers
so back office members of french defence are unionised. Are soliders airmen
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