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This is a discussion on Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Padfoot Can the 10 1100 ton D'Estienne d'Orves class corvettes really be classed as escorts? I mean ...


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Old December 21st, 2007   #31
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Can the 10 1100 ton D'Estienne d'Orves class corvettes really be classed as escorts? I mean you wouldn't send to the other side of the world to fight in a war, would you?
D'Estienne d' Orves class corvettes have escorted 3 humanitarian convoys destined for Somalia;the last convoy arrived on December 17. They were protecting the convoys from pirates.

Last edited by Spacearrow99; December 21st, 2007 at 08:29 PM.
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Old December 21st, 2007   #32
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The USN and Royal Navy rejected escorts of approx. this size since the late 1950s but the MN A-69s have given good service since replacing the 1950s, analogues of the USN and RN built ships, small frigates .

But the French have also rejected further construction of this sized escorts maybe with the recent experiences they will change their minds.

While relatively cheap to build, operate, man and mantain they have limited warfighting capabliities.

Apparently they are to be nominally replaced by the FREMM program.

The FREMMs really should replace the three F-67, seven F-70, two C-70 & five La Fayettes IMHO.

However if the MN wants to build more capable ships such as the FREMM as replacements for those as well as the A-69s then go for it.

Originally if IIRC the FREMMs were to replace the two F-67, six F-70 and the nine remaining A-69s. 17 Total.

The only real issue I have is that the A-69s have no organic helo.

As Ive said before though an OPV (some call it a frigate) like the Floreals could (Should?) be built as replacements.

Those ships too have been quite useful to the MN.

Last edited by rickusn; December 21st, 2007 at 05:18 PM.
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Old December 22nd, 2007   #33
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...l.

The only real issue I have is that the A-69s have no organic helo.

As Ive said before though an OPV (some call it a frigate) like the Floreals could (Should?) be built as replacements.

Those ships too have been quite useful to the MN.
The new Dutch patrol ships look interesting. One curious feature is that although lightly armed (76mm & a couple of MGs), they have a rather good sensor suite.
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Old December 22nd, 2007   #34
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"The new Dutch patrol ships look interesting. One curious feature is that although lightly armed (76mm & a couple of MGs), they have a rather good sensor suite."

Yes they are.

And yes Im a bit surprised(as I said before) no AAW missile system is fitted for at least point defence.

Yes they do but then radar development and manufacture is a major defence industry in The Netherland

http://www.naval-technology.com/cont...ntrol/thales5/

And look at the older ubiquitous egg.

So not surprising to me.

Im looking fwd to see how this platform develops.
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Old December 22nd, 2007   #35
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...
And yes Im a bit surprised(as I said before) no AAW missile system is fitted for at least point defence...
Im looking fwd to see how this platform develops.
Yes, & it's not obvious where they'd put one. IIRC, you said something similar in the thread on this class.

Yes indeed. I mentioned it here because I thought that it looks like a very good design for the "colonial policing" role of the Floreals. I doubt the French would buy a foreign design outright, but the MN & French shipbuilders might be looking at it with interest.
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Old December 23rd, 2007   #36
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The discussion on the A69 corvettes is quite interesting. They were initially conceived as coastal ASW light escorts. However then South Africa wanted 3, although because of sanctions they ended up in Argentina after renegotiations. Since then they have participated in several missions such as Haiti patrol with the UN. Turkey has bought 6 of the former French A69s and uses them for coastal patrol.

On a wider perspective, the French use large escort destroyers (actually FFGs) to escort carriers and amphibs, smaller frigates for hot conflicts overseas (Lafayettes) and patrol ships for the overseas territories and for showing the flag (Floreal OPVs).

If the French Navy cannot afford all the 17 FREMMs, which seems certain at this point (cost of PA2 and SSNs will reduce FREMMs to 13, probably including 2 air defence variants called FREDA), then they should think about building GOWINDs to replace the remaining A69s.

Ideal structure IMHO of the escort force :

11 ASW and LA (land attack) FREMMs
2 AAW FREMMs
2 Jean Bart AAW FFGs to be replaced around 2020 by 2 more AAW FREMMs
4 Gowind
5 Lafayette overseas light FFGs
6 Floreal 'colonial' OPVs

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Old December 23rd, 2007   #37
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Ideal structure IMHO of the escort force :

11 ASW and LA (land attack) FREMMs
2 AAW FREMMs
2 Jean Bart AAW FFGs to be replaced around 2020 by 2 more AAW FREMMs
4 Gowind
5 Lafayette overseas light FFGs
6 Floreal 'colonial' OPVs

cheers

If the total number of FREMMs are reduced to 13, the MN should upgrade the La Fayettes. The Gowinds do not have the range and potential ASW capabilities of the La Fayettes. The upgrades would be far cheaper than buying 4 Gowinds. The MN must renew the majority of its fleet, during the next 20 years. La Fayettes will be decommissioned in 2026-2031. Nearly all of the MNs major renewal programs should be over by 2028. The MN should have the funds to replace the La Fayettes by then.

Category
Withdrawal from active service *
Admission to active service **

Carrier
1 PA2 2015**

ASW FFGs and Avsios
2 ASW FFG type F 67 (Tourville 2011*, De Grasse 2012*)

3 ASW FFG type F70 (Dupleix 2012*, Montcalm 2013*, Jean de Vienne 2015*) 3

4 A 69 avisos (LV Le Hénaff 2013*, LV Lavallée 2014*, CDT L'Herminier 2014*, PM L'Her 2015*)

8 FREMM (6 ASW FREMM, 2 LA FREMM) 2011/2015**

Logistics Ships

2 AOR (Meuse 2010*, Var 2012*)
1 Jules Verne 2012*

3 Logistic Vessels (2012/2015)**

Sovereignty Ships

1 Albatros 2015*

10 P400 2011/2013*

4 Batral 2011/2014*

10 P400 NG (2011/2013)**

1 Albatros Replacement**

Batral Replacements**

Mine sweeper

1 Loire 2008 2008*
1 Mine Warship NG 2015**

Naval Aviation

6 Atlantic 2 *

41 Rafale M**

5 Maritime surveillance aircraft (maybe based on A319)**

18 NH90**


Possible Naval Procurement Projects from 2015-2027 (*procurement numbers may be cut)
6 Barracudas
2 AAW FFG FREDA
2 ASW FREMM AND 7 LA FREMM*
2 AOR
Mine Warships NG
1 LPD Next Generation ( Replacement for Foudre 2020 withdrawal date)
6 Presence Vessels ( Replacements for the Floreal Class)

Last edited by Spacearrow99; December 23rd, 2007 at 09:23 AM.
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Old December 23rd, 2007   #38
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It depends what you want to do with the Gowinds. Patrolling the Med or the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf doesn't require long range ships with heavy ASW assets.
Besides, if you modernize the Lafayettes you can easily replace the Crotale NG with Aster-15, but placing a Herakles is a radical restructuring. Adding serious ASW would require VDS and towed array low frequency active/passive sonar. All is feasible for sure, but expensive.
An alternative could be to develop something in between FREMM and Gowind and to do a joint Italian-French programme to gain some scale. While the Italian corvettes and light frigates are still recent (Artigliere and Minerva classes) we'll eventually have to replace them.

On verra bien...

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Old December 23rd, 2007   #39
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It depends what you want to do with the Gowinds. Patrolling the Med or the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf doesn't require long range ships with heavy ASW assets.
Besides, if you modernize the Lafayettes you can easily replace the Crotale NG with Aster-15, but placing a Herakles is a radical restructuring. Adding serious ASW would require VDS and towed array low frequency active/passive sonar. All is feasible for sure, but expensive.
An alternative could be to develop something in between FREMM and Gowind and to do a joint Italian-French programme to gain some scale. While the Italian corvettes and light frigates are still recent (Artigliere and Minerva classes) we'll eventually have to replace them.

On verra bien...

cheers
The VL Mica with the Arabel radar would be a good combination. The MN could also use VL Crotale, and just upgrade the La Fayettes ASW systems.
The La Fayettes would have to have ASW systems in the 13 FREMM scenario. Six FREMMS would be ASW, five would be LA, and two would be FREDAs.The FOST has 3 to 4 ASW FFGs assigned to it. The upgraded Lafayettes or ASW FREMMS could serve with the FOST. The Lafayettes would give the MN more flexibility. It would cost alot more to build 4 Gowinds, then it would cost to upgrade the La Fayettes.

Possible MN Surface Fleet

2 Horizon
2 FREDA
6 ASW FREMM
5 LA FREMM
5 La Fayettes
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Old December 30th, 2007   #40
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Possible MN Surface Fleet

2 Horizon
2 FREDA
6 ASW FREMM
5 LA FREMM
5 La Fayettes
I agree that this is the most likely configuration of the Marine Nationale's escort force around 2020. A défaut d'avoir plus de sous

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Old January 2nd, 2008   #41
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There are rumours that FREMM will also be Greece's new frigate.Probably the AAW version.Nothing is certain just rumours but I think it's one of the best choices.Especially the capability of Aster 30 over the Aegean is a huge bonus for its owner.
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Old January 11th, 2008   #42
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There are rumours that FREMM will also be Greece's new frigate.Probably the AAW version.Nothing is certain just rumours but I think it's one of the best choices.Especially the capability of Aster 30 over the Aegean is a huge bonus for its owner.
Indeed. Besides, Greece will profit from a price war between France and Italy to see who will build/help build the FREMMs. What a shame the consortium fell apart when it came to exporting the ships. The French have the advantage of having started construction earlier (though the Italian shipyards will start very shortly), the Italians have the advantage that the first FREMMs soon to be built will already be AAW FREMMs with Aster 30 and active EMPAR with the ESD (extended self defence) version.

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Old January 11th, 2008   #43
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I believe that one ship at least will be built in Greece,or there will be proposals so that this happen.Also I believe France has the advantage,because Greece has more ties in terms of military industry with them (Mirage etc).
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Old January 12th, 2008   #44
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I believe that one ship at least will be built in Greece,or there will be proposals so that this happen.Also I believe France has the advantage,because Greece has more ties in terms of military industry with them (Mirage etc).
Actually all 4 to 6 FREMMs (but for the 1st) are likely to be built in Greek shipyards, although most components (turbines, sensors and weapons) would be imported.
Greece has close military ties with several European countries. Even if we restrict to naval equipment, its subs and 4 Meko 200 FFGs are German, the bulk of its FFGs are ex Dutch Kortenaer, its latest AOR is Italian Etna, and for the FACs you'll see a mix of German, French, British (Vosper) and Danish designs... so nothing's for sure.
If we look at the requirement however, AAW FFGs in the range of 600 million euro per ship, the ship and sensor suite that comes closest is the FREMM ESD which will be standard for Italian FREMMs. Also, the active EMPAR phased array radar (operational around 2011) is quite an asset.
Let's see.

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PS : Mirage contract was in the 80s. True, modernization to -5 standard has just been done. However expect Typhoons to be ordered after the latest F16s
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Old January 12th, 2008   #45
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Our military development budget,has 2.8 bn euros registered for new ships and aircraft.So I believe that no more than 2 units (600mn each) can be purchased.
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