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This is a discussion on Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by rickusn In 1999 it was said that Mistral was being built to replace Jeanne de Arc. Whatever ...


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Old December 9th, 2007   #16
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Originally Posted by rickusn View Post
In 1999 it was said that Mistral was being built to replace Jeanne de Arc.

Whatever happened to that plan?
...
Was that ever officially stated? All I've ever heard is that Mistral & Tonnerre were to replace the old LPDs Ouragan & Orage, which is what has now happened.

The replacement proposals for JdA I've heard include a 3rd Mistral, & a similar but smaller ship.
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Old December 9th, 2007   #17
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With help from the current issue of Marineforum, as well as some more , here's a try at the disposition of most of the French fleet - the combat ships stationed at Toulon and Brest:

Brest: on missions
a. LV Lavallée A69 FFL, Mission Corymbe 89
b. PM L'Her A69 FFL, TF150
e. Rari patrol tug, Central Atlantic/Carribean Patrol

Toulon: on missions
a. Bougainville LSL, Mission Corymbe 90
b. Commandant Ducuing A69 FFL, TF150
c. Guepratte Lafayette FFG, TF150
d. Germinal Floreal FFL, Central Atlantic/Carribean Patrol


Training Group, Brest
I. Jeanne d'Arc, CGH, Training Ship
II. Georges Leygues, DDG, Training Group Escort

Guardian Force for FOST/SSBNs, Brest
I. Tourville classe DDGs, ASW
....(Tourville, De Grasse)
II. Georges Leygues DDGs, all MLU:ASW-Focus (!)
....(Latouche-Treville, Primauguet, La Motte-Piquet)
III. A69 FFLs, ASW
....(Cdt Blaison, Cdt L'Herminier, LV Le Hénaff)

And this should be the most interesting part for people here:

Toulon FAN Escorts (available on short notice)
I. Cassard class DDGs, AAW
....(Cassard, Jean Bart)
II. Georges Leygues DDGs, all MLU:ASuW-Focus (!)
....(Jean de Vienne, Montcalm, Dupleix)
III. Lafayette FFGs, ASuW
....(Lafayette, Surcouf, Courbet, Aconit)
IV. A69 FFLs, ASW
....(Cdt Bouan, Cdt Birot, EV Jacoubet)
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Old December 9th, 2007   #18
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The PA2 project money has already been allocated. The Sarkozy government supports the PA2 project, so it will probably get built. France could be drawn into a war by stationing their Rafales on a American carrier.

The Floreals are built to commerical standards; they're the French equivalent of U. S. Coast Guard cutters. The La Fayettes are presence vessels. They may get VL Crotale during their mid-life refit. If the Fremm numbers are cut, then the MN wil probably upgrade the La Fayettes with ASW systems.

The MNs major surface combatants are overworked. The MN doesn't have a sufficient number of FFGs to rotate properly for missions.
one slightly concerning thing about the PA2 is the lack of a name [once a ship has a name it becomes much more real].
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Old December 9th, 2007   #19
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Thanks for the info Kato.

Had some more questions and a coupla minor corrections they were/are not overly important anyway Im having trouble posting.

So no in-depth comments from me for awhile.

When will you be posting something new on your blog?

Swerve: I tried to post a response but every time I hit the submit button it comes up not logged in when I am and then of course my post disappears into never never land. Check out Combat Fleets 2000 or 2005.

The second time I attempted to go to preview so I could copy it before submitting but even that doesnt work now as it has before.

Plus Im PMing you with another post I find objectionable and IMHO does this board no credit.

SA 99: On sea times no argument but I did write a post reconciling the disparity but it too disappeared not once but twice.

So until I feel comfortable again that my offerings wont disappear my responses will be short and lacking the info I would like to impart.

Last edited by rickusn; December 9th, 2007 at 06:02 PM.
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Old December 9th, 2007   #20
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When will you be posting something new on your blog?
When i get around to finding out where the German Navy is hiding those two corvettes that were supposed to enter service in "Summer 2007".
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Old December 9th, 2007   #21
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LOL

Fair enough!!!!!!!!!!111
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Old December 9th, 2007   #22
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It's actually not so much that they're hiding them - the two ships are quite visible in port, and sometimes pulling out for little tours as well. They're all carrying their pennant numbers already too.

It's just that apparently, the Navy has so far neglected to actually commission them. And that they're sitting in the wrong port of course, nowhere near their future homeport.

Latest out of the rumour mill (from late November) is that it's planned to commission F260 Braunschweig sometime this month. Of course, the same rumour mill says "i'll believe it when i see it". Braunschweig was supposed to commission in May, and was planned (and cancelled) for a EX deployment in October. No word about F261 Magdeburg so far, which was supposed to commission in July or August.

---

Ah, well, back to France.

It seems that in recent exercises, the Mistrals are increasily taking over the role of a C3I ship for flotillas. Ie coordinating the attached escorts even in AAW and ASW situations.
An interesting approach i think, and, for France, a step away from somewhat-multifunctional dedicated ASW/AAW escorts towards a network-centric approach finally.
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Old December 13th, 2007   #23
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DCNS is developing their new Sylver A35 launcher. The launcher was designed for the VL Mica, developed by MBDA, but has also been designed to carry the Crotale VT1 by Thales. The VL Crotale is still in the planning stage. Each A35 launcher has a length of 4 meters, and it has 4 missile silos. The A35 has been designed to operate on low and medium tonnage vessels. They can also operate on larger tonnage vessels like the Mistral class.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=106352

* Thales and MBDA want the DGA to finance VL Crotale tests in 2009.

The next White Paper on Defense should be heavy with Naval Procurement programs.

Category
Withdrawal from active service *
Admission to active service **

Carrier
1 PA2 2015**

ASW FFGs and Avsios
2 ASW FFG type F 67 (Tourville 2011*, De Grasse 2012*)

3 ASW FFG type F70 (Dupleix 2012*, Montcalm 2013*, Jean de Vienne 2015*) 3

4 A 69 avisos (LV Le Hénaff 2013*, LV Lavallée 2014*, CDT L'Herminier 2014*, PM L'Her 2015*)

8 FREMM (6 ASW FREMM, 2 LA FREMM) 2011/2015**

Logistics Ships

2 AOR (Meuse 2010*, Var 2012*)
1 Jules Verne 2012*

3 Logistic Vessels (2012/2015)**

Sovereignty Ships

1 Albatros 2015*

10 P400 2011/2013*

4 Batral 2011/2014*

10 P400 NG (2011/2013)**

1 Albatros Replacement**

Batral Replacements**

Mine sweeper

1 Loire 2008 2008*
1 Mine Warship NG 2015**

Naval Aviation

6 Atlantic 2 *

41 Rafale M**

5 Maritime surveillance aircraft (maybe based on A319)**

18 NH90**


Possible Naval Procurement Projects from 2015-2027 (*procurement numbers may be cut)
6 Barracudas
2 AAW FFG FREDA
2 ASW FREMM AND 7 LA FREMM*
2 AOR
Mine Warships NG
1 LPD Next Generation ( Replacement for Foudre 2020 withdrawal date)
6 Presence Vessels ( Replacements for the Floreal Class)

There is no money for a 3rd Mistral type ship.

Last edited by Spacearrow99; December 19th, 2007 at 12:36 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2007   #24
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The White Paper on Defense and National Security should be very interesting. The LA FREMM needs a 127mm gun for amphibous landing support. I hope the French MOD appropriates money, for the upgrade of the La Fayettes ASW and AAW systems. One of the ASW FREMM could be canceled, the money would go to upgrading La Fayettes and adding a 127mm gun to the rest of the LA FREMM.The upgrades would take place from 2010-2015. This would be a very cheap solution, the Gowind doesn't have the range and potential ASW capabilities of the La Fayettes. The Taiwanese La Fayettes are similar to French La Fayettes, but they carry a towed sonar system.

The MN would have 12 ASW vessels for the FOST, CBGs, and AGs. The MN would have 7 ASW and 7 LA FREMMs. The two FREDA will use the same hull as the FREMM. Morrocco is buying one FREMM, so the full FREMM program size would stay at 27. This would be a good plan, if the FREMM and FREDA programs are fully financed.

7 ASW FREMM
7 LA FREMM
2 FREDA
5 Upgraded La Fayettes
1 ASW FREMM (Morrocco)

The contract signings for the last 9 FREMMS are in 2011 and 2013.

Last edited by Spacearrow99; December 19th, 2007 at 07:42 AM.
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Old December 19th, 2007   #25
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Some thoughts, not really all fitting together...

The (new) SSBNs have been eating up money, quite literally. The Le Triomphant class apparently has had a total program cost of some €13 billion (2002 estimate) for the four subs! You could buy 25 Horizons for that money easily, and still have a billion or so left.
The total program cost of the Le Triomphant and M51 programs, from 1985 to 2005 has been nearly €25 billion.

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Old December 19th, 2007   #26
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Its a shame they wont build any more Horizon class ships
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Old December 19th, 2007   #27
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The total program cost of the Le Triomphant and M51 programs, from 1985 to 2005 has been nearly €25 billion.

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ouch that's expensive what was the whole program budgeted for?
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Old December 19th, 2007   #28
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the french DD-1000
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Old December 19th, 2007   #29
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The total program cost of the Le Triomphant and M51 programs, from 1985 to 2005 has been nearly €25 billion.
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Afaik, that figure would also include:
- the M45 program (which was? around 2.5 billion i'd guess?)
- the refit of L'Inflexible from M4B to M45 (ok, that's minor).

And presumably also the entire development and production of TN-75 and the failed development of TNO, as both programs closely tie into this.
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Old December 20th, 2007   #30
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Which brings us to another interesting observation.:

That since 1980 the Royal Navy has seen its escort force reduced from 66 combatants to 25 or a 62% reduction.

The Marine Nationale from 48(including the cruiser Colbert) combatants to 33 only a 31% reduction.

I included the two new Horizon replacments for the Suffrens in the above calculations.

Although to be sure the nine A-69s, 6 Floreal and 5 La Fayettes all have severe combat limitations.

Their ASW/AAW capability is either extremely limited or nonexistent depending on the class.

Any thoughts?

Can the 10 1100 ton D'Estienne d'Orves class corvettes really be classed as escorts? I mean you wouldn't send to the other side of the world to fight in a war, would you?
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