This is a discussion on kirov class battle cruiser within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by swerve
Take a look at some of the OPVs, patrol frigates & the like out there. E.g. ...
Take a look at some of the OPVs, patrol frigates & the like out there. E.g. the Danish Thetis class - 8300 nautical miles range, 60 days endurance without resupply, ice-strengthened. They patrol Arctic waters & the North Atlantic, in all weathers, all year round: heavy and ice-covered seas are exactly what they're built for.
, spread over the entire Russian Federation's ice-free coastline. And I doubt they are suitable for ops in deep Arctic, even if some could be transferred from other fleets!
They may be enough for routine patrols, but for the real-world naval standoffs preceeding international recognition of their claims you need something bigger. Russian Warships to Patrol Arctic Again http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=5369914
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The Russian Navy also places more attention on the Arctic region, resuming its regular naval presence in that area, after 17 years of noted absence. In June and early July 2008 the Russian Udaloy class anti-submarine ship Severomorsk entered the arctic circle for about a month' deployment, replaced by the Slava class missile cruiser 'Marshal Ustinov' in mid July. http://www.defense-update.com/newsca...e_arcrtic.html
[QUOTE=nevidimka;152880]Regarding the number of Kirov in service, how many does Russia has in service now? AFAIK, 1 is operational in North fleet, while another is in docks awaiting upgrades. Is the 1 awaiting upgrade now operational in the Pacific?QUOTE]
There is two in sevice:
Admiral Nakhimov
Pyotr Velikiy
And one might reenter service depending on funding:
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog
AFAIK the whole concept for development of the Russian aircraft carriers is to provide indigenous fleet air defense. Without a CV, Russian battle groups take a step backwards and will need to rely only on land based air support.
Hence why I'd love to see combined taskforces, that have the firepower of a very heavy cruiser, and the organic air support of a carrier. In my opinion it's not even necessary to build a full size super carrier. Something of intermediate size, say capable of carrying 48 fighters (2 regiments), 4-8 ASW/AEW helo's and 2-3 small AWACS would be enough. Keep in mind the entire VVS right now has 7 regiments of Su-27's. Meaning that a 4 carrier Navy with 3 regiments per carrier would have more air superiority fighters then the entire VVS. (another reason why I'm skeptical of the 5-6 super carrier plans, they would call for over 400 carrier fighters, and they'd have to be 5th gens)
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One of the features of Russian/Soviet ship defense systems are robust AAW, even going to triple-redundancy, the low cost solution for a fleet without CV provided fleet air defense.
One doesn't replace the other. In my opinion both are desirable.
Hence why I'd love to see combined taskforces, that have the firepower of a very heavy cruiser, and the organic air support of a carrier. In my opinion it's not even necessary to build a full size super carrier. Something of intermediate size, say capable of carrying 48 fighters (2 regiments), 4-8 ASW/AEW helo's and 2-3 small AWACS would be enough. Keep in mind the entire VVS right now has 7 regiments of Su-27's. Meaning that a 4 carrier Navy with 3 regiments per carrier would have more air superiority fighters then the entire VVS. (another reason why I'm skeptical of the 5-6 super carrier plans, they would call for over 400 carrier fighters, and they'd have to be 5th gens)
One doesn't replace the other. In my opinion both are desirable.
A kirov replacement design, and a Kuznetsov replacement. Remove the heavy antiship missiles and other space wasting equipment from the carrier replacement. Make the Kirov replacement have either conventional or nuclear propulsion, not both (steam + nuc)
Whether it's a kalashniklov, a Kirov, or a carrier, it's extraordinarily difficult to make a useful off-hand comment on what can or should be done by the Russian defence establishment. I guess one needs a very well informed insight into that country's economy, evolving or otherwise, before getting into tthe didactics of the situation. Still, given Russia's aerial offensive and defensive research and production capabilities, it's not diffficult to come down on the side of carrier construction. The other factor demanding consideration is the Russian psyche. Carriers are without doubt a very "public" way of expressing a nation's strength. Putin and Medvedev have shown they are determined to do just that....so carriers and more carriers are a likely priority item.
Regarding the number of Kirov in service, how many does Russia has in service now? AFAIK, 1 is operational in North fleet, while another is in docks awaiting upgrades. Is the 1 awaiting upgrade now operational in the Pacific?QUOTE]
There is two in sevice:
Admiral Nakhimov
Pyotr Velikiy
And one might reenter service depending on funding:
Admiral Lazarev
So the second 1 ( Admiral Nakhimov) is in service then? The upgrades are complete then?
Is there a link to the news? Also what types of upgrades went into the ship?
And where is the Admiral Lazarev currently sitting? Do they have the funds to upgrade and turn around the ship?
And AFAIK, they cannibalised 1 of the 4 ships to keep the others working, so it should be the Kirov then? coz that is the oldest ship of the 4 produced? And do you know where currently is the Kirov now?
So the second 1 ( Admiral Nakhimov) is in service then? The upgrades are complete then?
Is there a link to the news? Also what types of upgrades went into the ship?
And where is the Admiral Lazarev currently sitting? Do they have the funds to upgrade and turn around the ship?
And AFAIK, they cannibalised 1 of the 4 ships to keep the others working, so it should be the Kirov then? coz that is the oldest ship of the 4 produced? And do you know where currently is the Kirov now?
Status of ships (according to wiki):
#1 (Kirov/Admiral Ushakov): Decommissioned in the early 1990's after a reactor accident, either scrapped or waiting for scrapping.
#2 (Frunze/Admiral Lazarev): Decommissioned in late 1990's after the fourth and last ship was commissioned, was reported in 2004 that if the funds became available it would be refitted and recommissioned
3#: Kalinin/Admiral Nakhimov) Commissioned 1988, refitted 1999-~2006, Active in service
#4: (Yuri Andropov/Pyotr Velikiy): Commissioned 1998, active in service.
#5: Cancelled during construction
Edit: Each of the ships has 3 seperate AA missile systems, each with two illuminators, plus 6 Kashtan CIWS and a 130mm gun. Not an easy target on the best of days if those missile systems are any good.
Perhaps we need to take a step back and fully examine the mission requirements and Naval Doctrine of the Russian Navy to support Russian policies and politics.
Then we can discuss whether a battle cruiser, an aircraft carrier, both, or neither will fulfil The Russian Navy's needs.
Last edited by Salty Dog; August 30th, 2008 at 02:18 PM.
No problem with that, Salty Dog. I guess I was tending to step out of the military considerations with the suggestion that we discover who's carrying the political weight on a question of this nature, and how far they're willing to push in either direction. The "weight" seems to be obvious at the moment but I'm not overly sure it will end up lending itself to what we may feel are sensible conclusions. That doesn't alter the fact that you are absolutely right. I just worry about the wild cards.
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Russia is in the middle of writing a new doctrine that will (rumors) include force projection requirements, as well as coastal defence, COIN, and peacekeepeing missions for the VMF. The old doctrine doesn't form any coherent requirements for the Navy.
No problem, Feanor. Again, my interest pro tem is in discovering which government members in Moscow are putting themselves out to explore and discuss the matter. What are they saying to each other? Who is pushing for what...and why? All of these threads are an education for me. I'm a new boy within this context, and I really appreciate the various in-puts...but I seem to have developed my thinking processes in a culture which encourages the identification and dissection of motives and possible outcomes. Of course, that doesn't mean I shouldn't be stepped on now and then. Anyway, thanks again to all. I'm reading and learning... again, after so many years.
The main Russian surface fleet project for the next decade will be Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov.
Specifications
4500t
4000nm range @ 16kt
29kt top speed
30 day endurance
crew of 210
Armament
2*8 Yakhont
4*8 9M96 missiles (The is 9M96 one of the missiles the S-400 system uses.)
2*4 Medvedka 2 VLS ASW
2 Sosna CIAD
130mm A-192
Command and Control
Redut AA Suite
Sensors
Poliment K-Radar
Puma Fire Control Radar
The VLS Shtil-1 will be offered to export customers only. Their is no concrete information about the command and control and sensors of Admiral Gorshkov.
Last edited by Spacearrow99; September 2nd, 2008 at 10:41 AM.
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How so? The Admiral Gorshkov is a VTOL TAKR. It's of an obsolete design, and the last one of it's class. It's being sold off to India after a heavy refit into a regular light carrier. The Russian Navy will have to make due with modernized Kirovs and the Kuznetsov for it's major surface ships for the next decade.
You do know Feanor that the new Admiral Gorshkov class is a frigate/SRK design and that above data is corresponding to it and not to the old Admiral Gorshkov which was the last of the Kiev class...
________________ Once Gollevainen was biten by snake....
Btw, what is the upgrades for the second Kirov class cruiser if anybody knows? and what is the status of the 3rd Kirov class?
And is there a video of the Kirov class in the internet? All I can find are stills of it docked in port, that's all. Its so secretive, not even a video is available?
(another reason why I'm skeptical of the 5-6 super carrier plans, they would call for over 400 carrier fighters, and they'd have to be 5th gens)
