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Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD

This is a discussion on Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by overlander Spanish carrier Principe de Asturias have beeen paid off and retired of service just a few ...


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Old March 25th, 2013   #76
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Spanish carrier Principe de Asturias have beeen paid off and retired of service just a few weeks ago , the carrier will be scrapped in a few months due to cuts because the massive economy crisis in Spain.
This will leave only the lhd Juan Carlos I as the operational "carrier" in the future.
There isnt any massive economy crisis in Spain, just in the last years a process of growing unemployment, upto 5 million official. Apart from that there is a market of 15-20 million jobs that is the real economy in Spain. France had official last numbers like 5 million unemployed also. Media in other countries tend to select sad situations for showing, only sad situations that exist in all the countries.

But Spain has a very good retirement programs with bigger pension than in Germany paying less taxes than them, we have a free health service much better than in many countries, here in Spain many more people can go to university because it is much cheaper and with loans than in rest of world, here we own in property more houses than anyone in Europe or the world, that is because the germans in their stats say the Spanish we are the richest of Europe hehe.
If Spain was like Usa focusing in armyes and navies, instead of free health, less retirement pension, less university studies for people, Spain would have the 2nd army/navy/air force of the world.

Spanish companies won 7 or 8 of each 10 contests about whatever bussiness in the world, electricity, gas, renewables energies, water and many other technology things, so economic newspapers in the world, Usa or Uk, and the rest media tend to select and image os Spain sad to show.

But this is a defence forum and i dont go into many more realities/lies of world economy.
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Old March 25th, 2013   #77
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I didn't think it had things like weapon lifts, specific easy to access weapon stores etc.
There is a lift directly from the EMF magazine lobby to flight deck level in the vicinity of the TAS. The EMF and ship's magazines were not originally intended for supplying air weapons to embarked or visiting aircraft, but feasibility depends on how badly you want to do it and any modifications for RAN service.
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Old March 25th, 2013   #78
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The Canberra class aren't going in to do hard amphibious assaults. At least not by themselves, maybe with a USMC Amphib group, 5,000 marines, backed by a nearby CBG.

However consider a few possibilities.

Fiji - With 2014 elections.
PNG - Even securing Port Moresby would be a massive job. And odds are that something will happen in the next 10 years. Recently they have been in some pretty dodgey situations politically.
ET - still shakey, UN just left at the end of last year.

I would get a cold shiver if someone thought they could turn up with lonely Choules and be okay, except as a basic, flag waving/basic police exercise. Heck the risk of mechanical or electrical failure alone means thats a bad idea to operate that way. With only 2 LHD you can't even sustain your deployment, and struggle to resupply you might as well not deploy at all.

Think back to 2006 when we had that black hawk accident off the coast of Fiji. I can't see us being all cowboy with platforms that are going to struggle at that. Sure its possible, but you would need to a pretty good reason to do it, in case it all went south.

In 2006 we send Kanimbla and that wasn't enough to change events, in fact it wasn't really even enough if we wanted to evac only important Australians. The LHD seem to be really sensible purchases to me, but you really need 3 to operational to do what we really need to.
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Old March 25th, 2013   #79
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...
If Spain was like Usa focusing in armyes and navies, instead of free health, ...
However you calculate it, Spain spends less on health than the USA. Less per head in total, less government spending per head, less total spending as a percentage of GDP, less as a percentage of government spending, less government spending on health as a percentage of GDP.

The myth of US private health spending vs profligate European state health services is just that: a myth. In reality, the USA has a state health sector the same size (as a percentage of GDP) as those in Europe. On top of that, the USA spends even more on private health care.
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Old March 25th, 2013   #80
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There isnt any massive economy crisis in Spain, just in the last years a process of growing unemployment, upto 5 million official. Apart from that there is a market of 15-20 million jobs that is the real economy in Spain. France had official last numbers like 5 million unemployed also. Media in other countries tend to select sad situations for showing, only sad situations that exist in all the countries.

But Spain has a very good retirement programs with bigger pension than in Germany paying less taxes than them, we have a free health service much better than in many countries, here in Spain many more people can go to university because it is much cheaper and with loans than in rest of world, here we own in property more houses than anyone in Europe or the world, that is because the germans in their stats say the Spanish we are the richest of Europe hehe.
If Spain was like Usa focusing in armyes and navies, instead of free health, less retirement pension, less university studies for people, Spain would have the 2nd army/navy/air force of the world.

Spanish companies won 7 or 8 of each 10 contests about whatever bussiness in the world, electricity, gas, renewables energies, water and many other technology things, so economic newspapers in the world, Usa or Uk, and the rest media tend to select and image os Spain sad to show.

But this is a defence forum and i dont go into many more realities/lies of world economy.
I'm struggling to see the relevance of your post, this is a defence forum, not a political soapbox.
You have simply illustrated why your country is struggling with its national debt which has nothing to do with the LHD's.
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Old March 25th, 2013   #81
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T I would get a cold shiver if someone thought they could turn up with lonely Choules and be okay, except as a basic, flag waving/basic police exercise. Heck the risk of mechanical or electrical failure alone means thats a bad idea to operate that way.
I'd be very angry if I purchased a car that unreliable, let alone a defence asset. Is this something that happens often? I have to plead ignorance, I'm more a foreign policy guy and less a defence spec person (specialist? Dare I say nerd, heh?). Part of the reason I I'm on this site is to make good that ignorance.

Anyhoo, went off on a bit of a sidetrack there, I'm somewhat interested in the MOOTW potential of these ships. It seems to be substantial.
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Old March 25th, 2013   #82
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I'd be very angry if I purchased a car that unreliable, let alone a defence asset. Is this something that happens often? I have to plead ignorance, I'm more a foreign policy guy and less a defence spec person (specialist? Dare I say nerd, heh?). Part of the reason I I'm on this site is to make good that ignorance.

Anyhoo, went off on a bit of a sidetrack there, I'm somewhat interested in the MOOTW potential of these ships. It seems to be substantial.
Time will tell if we got thing right with Choules regarding her transformer problems, I'd say the RAN will have come to terms with the proposion system just like they will have to do the same with the Canberras (LHD)

We have been getting a lot of OJT in regards to MOOTW or HADR both the new assets will shine in this regards with their ability to either move stores and equipment via helicopter or landing craft. HADR is only a secondary role on why the goverment at the time ordered the largest vessels in the history of the RAN.

HMAS Melboure (R21) was also used like this in 74 for cyclone Tracy and I would expect other times as well in the south pacfic, would have been even more interesting to see if they had both Melbourne and Sydney for use as a commando carrier filled with helicopters, it would not have been very efficant with out the well dock but as we saw with Sydney as a troop ship during Vietnam could move a lot of men and matrial.
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Old March 26th, 2013   #83
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I'm struggling to see the relevance of your post, this is a defence forum, not a political soapbox.
You have simply illustrated why your country is struggling with its national debt which has nothing to do with the LHD's.
I dont want to extend too much. Spanish public deficit in 2012 is low, 6.7 % gdp, and public debt is low +-80 % gdp. The only that is wrong here are economic rating companies, wrong bank balance rules, media confusing people, and with bad intentions. Anyway Spanish economy is strong.
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Old March 26th, 2013   #84
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I dont want to extend too much. Spanish public deficit in 2012 is low, 6.7 % gdp, and public debt is low +-80 % gdp. The only that is wrong here are economic rating companies, wrong bank balance rules, media confusing people, and with bad intentions. Anyway Spanish economy is strong.
Este foro no es para decir esas cosas, aqui se habla de cosas serias sobre temas militares, si quieres hablar de la economia española habre un post en la seccion apropiada, si no tu tiempo aqui sera corto.

Apologies in advance for not using english.
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Old March 26th, 2013   #85
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Este foro no es para decir esas cosas, aqui se habla de cosas serias sobre temas militares, si quieres hablar de la economia española habre un post en la seccion apropiada, si no tu tiempo aqui sera corto.

Apologies in advance for not using english.
It is quite alright. Your efforts and pictures are indeed appreciated.
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Old March 27th, 2013   #86
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I'd be very angry if I purchased a car that unreliable, let alone a defence asset. Is this something that happens often? I have to plead ignorance, I'm more a foreign policy guy and less a defence spec person (specialist? Dare I say nerd, heh?). Part of the reason I I'm on this site is to make good that ignorance.

Anyhoo, went off on a bit of a sidetrack there, I'm somewhat interested in the MOOTW potential of these ships. It seems to be substantial.
The electrical thing is just what happens. Until you go proving your new shiny toy, you really don't know what sort of issues may crop up. Even with proven kit, you need a plan to handle issues like things breaking, or needing repairs. How many ships and aircraft have issues with life expectancy and structural cracking? Its fairly common and can be managed. It just depends if they are long term and if they inhibit operational capability.

The LHD have really significant capabilities in and out of war. Across all the services. They are going to be the asset Australian defence capability is going to rely on as our region has such few suitable facilities even for commercial operations in good weather. I can see Australia really having a big amphibious focus after acquiring them, and more significantly after using them.

I notice the navy quoting over 1100 embarkedLINK and the intention to use both together to deploy over 2000 LINK.
So it looks like Australia is going to use them very differently than Spain intends to. We want USMC style LHD capabilities, while Spain is more after more conventional style capabilities that come from operation one ship.
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Old March 27th, 2013   #87
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So it looks like Australia is going to use them very differently than Spain intends to. We want USMC style LHD capabilities, while Spain is more after more conventional style capabilities that come from operation one ship.
If this is to be the case, then we need a third. The government, and more importantly the RAN, can't afford to have a repeat of the Kanimbla/Manoora situation, where they were both worked so hard that they died together.
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Old March 27th, 2013   #88
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http://i.imgur.com/t28nCTQ.jpg

Looks like a radar already sitting on the forward mast. Does anyone know how much of the combat system has been installed yet? That will be the tricky part, adding the non-spanish kit to the spanish hull.
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Old March 27th, 2013   #89
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Este foro no es para decir esas cosas, aqui se habla de cosas serias sobre temas militares, si quieres hablar de la economia española habre un post en la seccion apropiada, si no tu tiempo aqui sera corto.

Apologies in advance for not using english.
The economy of a country is directed related with the defence expenditure of a country, it is the cause of amount of defence expenditure. So general auxiliar economic info, that are not exceeding in big paragraphs, just general info is related to any defence topic. There is another data generally very used in forums and it is the % of gdp that goes to defence absolutely related to public deficit and fiscal pressure from public debt.

Anyway, how many different small subtopics appear constantly in any thread, related in one way or another. And in my case my economic mentions are replies to previous economic mentions by other, so also there is a margin of text to reply, it is a right.

The moderators normally comment things or warn people before banning anyone.
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Old March 27th, 2013   #90
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http://i.imgur.com/t28nCTQ.jpg

Looks like a radar already sitting on the forward mast. Does anyone know how much of the combat system has been installed yet? That will be the tricky part, adding the non-spanish kit to the spanish hull.
Not really tricky at all, the RAN is pretty familiar with the 9LV and associated equipment, especially with the superstructure being built here and having Australian specific modifications to the layout of it
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