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Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD

This is a discussion on Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Jhom More like a 70/30 ratio, being generous with the aussie part. And a smart way to ...


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Old March 12th, 2013   #46
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More like a 70/30 ratio, being generous with the aussie part.
And a smart way to do it too if you ask me. The Spanish know how to make a good ship so piggy backing off their skills isn't silly.

I'd go as far as to say the RAN should also investigate a similar joint / cooperative idea for the future Sub program to minimise risk. Don't know who with exactly but having someone with active build experiance that we can leap frog off and modify/complete ourselves would surely have to be worth a look.
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Old March 12th, 2013   #47
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And a smart way to do it too if you ask me. The Spanish know how to make a good ship so piggy backing off their skills isn't silly.
Would like to add, that the RAN will also benefit from the LHD fit out(in Australia) in ensuring that RAN personnel are seeing and understanding the engineering of systems as they are being installed into the LHD. As a number of RAN members have stated this is a very important point and one that saves money in the long run.

Knowing and seeing how something works ,and being part of the team that installs moving parts/systems,ect,seems to have been lacking(on some ships) when the RAN has purchased completed ships from overseas. You can not put a price on training crew/engineers who will operate these ships IMHO.I must say i really never thought of this,till it was pointed out by a member here.

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I'd go as far as to say the RAN should also investigate a similar joint / cooperative idea for the future Sub program to minimise risk. Don't know who with exactly but having someone with active build experiance that we can leap frog off and modify/complete ourselves would surely have to be worth a look.
Off topic...
The Japanese are the only ones who operate a sub in a league similar to what the RAN needs.I would assume any other country(besides Japan) ,would be piggy backing of our experience, and as such would not bring much to the table when selecting a 4000 ton sub.The Collins is held in high regard with a number of navy's around the world.
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Old March 13th, 2013   #48
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Just so you guys know, today we have put some garlic pieces in a number of points in the Adelaide, continuing a tradition of centuries passed along galician shipbuilders.

The garlic is to keep the Meigas (witches in galician) away from the ship, so she may sail safely for the rest of her days .

I myself placed one of the garlic pieces, something I couldnt do with Canberra and that buggered me quite a lot. I hope your gov decides to go for the 3rd one, we are already warmed up!!
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Old March 13th, 2013   #49
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Awesome Jhom!

A 3rd LHD would provide a better maintainance rotation thats for sure. Not sure how 2 will rotate (one in maintainance one available all times?) but the thing that I asume will stop this is that we recently picked up HMAS Choules which has similar yet reduced capabilities. As a result I'd find it hard to imagine we will go for the 3rd LHD now.

If anything we probably would be better to go for a 4th Air Warfare Destroyer down the track instead.
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Old March 18th, 2013   #50
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The flight deck is 100 feet wide on the Canberra class and the wing and rotor diameter on the V-22 is 98.9 feet wide, so there isn't a whole lot of room there and very little margin for error on most of the flightdeck.

There might be one or two spots on the flightdeck that can handle the V-22 but I would hazard a guess at "no" for the majority of the ship...

In terms of hangars, elevators etc that wouldn't be a problem as it has a folding rotor capability and it's wingspan and fuselage is much smaller than the Chinook which is intended to be operated from the LHD's.

Does anyone know if the Chinook has to lock it's rotors in the "admin" position before they can be taken below deck on the Canberra Class?
I found these stats for you AD about V22 and chinook, when I was looking for infomation on the LHD crane and lift capacity.

http://www.navantia.es/ckfinder/user...tia_ingles.pdf


The fl ight deck has been designed to operate, launch,
receive and provide support, both day and night, to planes
and helicopters such as the third Squadrons AB-212, the
fi fth Squadrons SH-3D, and the ninth Squadrons AV-8B
Harrier II Plus. As well as the aircraft in service with the
Navy, the ship is able to receive the Armys CH-47 Chinook,
Eurocopter Cougar and Tiger as well as the NH-90 when it
enters into service with the Navy and with the Spanish Army.
In a signifi cant qualitative leap, this ship is also designed to
operate with the STOVL version of the JSF, the F-35B Lighting II,
if the Spanish Navy decides to acquire this exceptional plane.
A touchdown point has also been reserved astern of the fl ight
deck that is specially adapted (in dimensions and resistance)
for the special needs of the new V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft.
For the transfer of aircraft between the hanger and the fl ight
deck, the Juan Carlos I has two elevators, each with a capacity
of 25 tonnes and suffi cient size to be able to carry up to the
new F-35B Lightning II, or a helicopter the size of a Chinook.
The capacity of the hangar is variable depending on the mission
profi le. This means an area of 1,000 m2 would be available
for an amphibious type profi le. This surface area could be
increased by a further 2,046 m2, using the upper garage to
have greater capacity for the aircraft. This means the hangar
would reach 3,000 m2 for an aircraft carrier type profi le. The
hanger itself, situated further astern, can house up to 12
medium-sized helicopters. In the case of the LHD operating as
a temporary aircraft carrier, the vehicles and material would
be substituted by between 10 and 12 STOVL planes, as well
as the dozen helicopters previously mentioned. In order to
provide support for airborne operations, it is estimated that
the ship has suffi cient fuel, spare parts and arms so that the
embarked aircraft could carry out their operations without the
ship needing replenishment for up to a maximum of 50 days.
The planned airborne capacity is for her to transport and
operate up to 30 aircraft including medium-sized and heavy
helicopters in amphibious operation profi les, or between
10 and 12 F35B planes or AV-8B+, plus a similar number of
medium-sized helicopters when acting with an aircraft carrier
mission profi le at times when the Prncipe de Asturias R-11 is
not operational.
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Old March 18th, 2013   #51
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V-22 compatibility is possible but may not be operationally relevant. (much like the F-35B). You could do it in training or in an emergency or under unusual circumstances.

V-22 ops would most likely be an exclusive proposition. So I don't see Australia nor Spain purchasing V-22 (for a whole bunch of reasons). But may have some limited usefulness in joint operations (with USMC) for things like medical evacs etc.

While I can think of several good reasons to get a 3rd LHD (and I don't know if Choules recent issues have reduced that) but its still a long way from it happening. However of all the possible random crazy defence election year acquisitions we could have, I think its actually one of the more useful ones. 3rd of a class efficiencies (operation, logistics etc), ensure capability, share sea time across 3 hulls, actually be able to sustain operations without completely forking up the entire RAN, actual ability to train army, navy and air force operations, additional availability for humanitarian and regional support missions. Of all the big assets, its going to be used almost 100% of the time to do something. Policing missions, people smuggling, regional security, aid relief, disaster, working with USMC other amphibs on a global scale. Its the sort of asset that could change policy just by sitting peacefully in nearby international waters and will most likely be used to ensure several nearby nations stick to planned democratic election dates. Look at how clapped out our previous LPA are. Because of the type of deployments they are involved in, with 2 you don't really get the chance to do proper repairs or upgrades and they were far less capable than the JC1 design.

I would imagine Spain would be very keen to push us a 3rd. Spain still does a lot of the big steel construction, but I would be interested in the Australian fit out in terms of $'s. I wouldn't be surprised if more $'s are spent here and in system acquisitions than in Spain. The thing about a LHD is the sense of value. Your average voter can see that its a big ship that can be useful a number of ways.
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Old March 18th, 2013   #52
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Just so you guys know, today we have put some garlic pieces in a number of points in the Adelaide, continuing a tradition of centuries passed along galician shipbuilders.

The garlic is to keep the Meigas (witches in galician) away from the ship, so she may sail safely for the rest of her days .

I myself placed one of the garlic pieces, something I couldnt do with Canberra and that buggered me quite a lot. I hope your gov decides to go for the 3rd one, we are already warmed up!!
I love hearing stories like this. My first destroyer had 55 cents placed under the mast as well as the namesakes rank pins.
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Old March 18th, 2013   #53
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I love hearing stories like this. My first destroyer had 55 cents placed under the mast as well as the namesakes rank pins.
Have to ask, anything significant with the value of 55 cents? Do they still paint/plate a single rivet gold to be the "golden rivet"?
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Old March 18th, 2013   #54
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Have to ask, anything significant with the value of 55 cents? Do they still paint/plate a single rivet gold to be the "golden rivet"?
Stepping the Mast, Navy tradition that normally puts coins equal in value to the hull number. The coins also may or may not have some connection to the ship's namesake.

In my case, my first ship (also a destroyer) would have had only 52 cents, three pennies short of AegisFC's ship
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Old March 19th, 2013   #55
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Of course the pennant number..
That makes sense. I was thinking it was some multiplication of the crew compliment. Didn't that one start out as a way of making sure the entire ship could cross over the river Stix?

Does it cover the toll for any Army or airforce folk onboard amphibs or carriers?

I wonder if the Garlic thing has something to do with insects or worms on wooden ships, stopping them from rotting or getting infestations.
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Old March 19th, 2013   #56
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I wonder if the Garlic thing has something to do with insects or worms on wooden ships, stopping them from rotting or getting infestations.
Galician witches dont like garlic, so we put it in the ships to protect them from dark spirits so they can sail safely.
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Old March 19th, 2013   #57
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Galician witches dont like garlic, so we put it in the ships to protect them from dark spirits so they can sail safely.


Sorry to the mods in advance but I can't help myself

Can you please send some Galician garlic to the Lodge in Canberra.
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Old March 20th, 2013   #58
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Sorry to the mods in advance but I can't help myself

Can you please send some Galician garlic to the Lodge in Canberra.
Nope, but I can give you this: ★ ASÍ SE CONSTRUYE UN BARCO DE GUERRA 2013 ★ (LHD) - YouTube
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Old March 20th, 2013   #59
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Very cool.
Many thanks
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Old March 20th, 2013   #60
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Sorry to the mods in advance but I can't help myself

Can you please send some Galician garlic to the Lodge in Canberra.
You'd need some silver bullets and stakes as well. It's a pollie your dealing with.

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Real neat mate. Thank you for posting this. It certainly illustrates modern build techniques.
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