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Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread

This is a discussion on Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Long dead thread i know but after a search it appears to be the best place to ask this question: ...


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Old December 11th, 2012   #61
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Long dead thread i know but after a search it appears to be the best place to ask this question: What is the logic behind a number of Japanese Destroyer Classes having a pair of LM2500 and a pair of RR SM1C GTs?

These main propulsion GTs are of similar outputs and I notice that current builds have either LM2500 or Spey instead of two of each as seen on the earlier ships. I can understand matching a smaller cruising GT to a larger one for high speed but why two types of the same class of GT?
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Old December 17th, 2012   #62
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Its funny though.
Arm the thing with 16 inch guns and you have all things covered. Agreed funny ...... But a tad tragic
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Old December 17th, 2012   #63
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Several people mentioned that skimmers were essentially just torpedo fodder and that helicopters are far more efficient sub hunters. Obviously this kind of supports the construction of this kind of warship but it has me wondering about the actual value of traditional ASW frigates.

Is their day done?

Should modern navies be looking more at mixes of ASW helicopter carriers, AntiAir destroyers and OPVs and forget about ASW frigates?

Also what is the crew size of this ship?

Wikipedia says 970 with troops ... but I was wondering what size crew would be required just to operate the ship and helicopters.
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Old December 17th, 2012   #64
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Several people mentioned that skimmers were essentially just torpedo fodder and that helicopters are far more efficient sub hunters. Obviously this kind of supports the construction of this kind of warship but it has me wondering about the actual value of traditional ASW frigates.

Is their day done?

Should modern navies be looking more at mixes of ASW helicopter carriers, AntiAir destroyers and OPVs and forget about ASW frigates?

Also what is the crew size of this ship?

Wikipedia says 970 with troops ... but I was wondering what size crew would be required just to operate the ship and helicopters.
I was under the impression - rightly or wrongly - that helicopters were most efficient at prosecuting enemy submarines, but that was predicated on them being found first. Again this is an impression unsupported by any data that I have, but I think that the traditional ASW frigate is a key player in the acquisition process. Interesting conversation.
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Old December 17th, 2012   #65
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ASW rotary platforms need skimmers and vice versa

they don't operate in isolation
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Old December 18th, 2012   #66
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ASW rotary platforms need skimmers and vice versa

they don't operate in isolation
A DDH (through deck JMSDF type) and an AWD combined with a number of ADs corvettes would make for a very capable escort or surface action group but you would still need ships capable of independent action, i.e. a high end frigate.

The only way I could see to do it would be to work out how many AWDs you could afford in addition to three DDH and a dozen corvettes and then determine if that leaves enough spare to conduct independent ops.
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Old December 18th, 2012   #67
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Japan's building ships the JMSDF calls destroyers, which some other navies might think of as high-end frigates. Look up the Akizuki class.
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Old December 18th, 2012   #68
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A DDH (through deck JMSDF type) and an AWD combined with a number of ADs corvettes would make for a very capable escort or surface action group but you would still need ships capable of independent action, i.e. a high end frigate.
Its the permanent struggle of trying to get the best bang and capability for buck

thats why over the last few years there's been an increase in MRV type solutions (absalons, LCS, even Hyuga type)
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Last edited by gf0012-aust; December 19th, 2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Old December 19th, 2012   #69
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Its the permanent struggle of trying to get the best bang and capability for buck

thats why over the last few years there's been an increase in MRV type solutions (absalons, LCS, even Hyuga type)
When it comes down to it an AWD can stand in for a GP or ASW frigate but not the other way around so you could say an AWD is more multi role than a frigate. Perhaps a mix of Hyuga type, AWDs, Absalons and corvettes, say 3/5/5/10. I don't know if it would be affordable but it sure would be versatile.

Having more capability than you need much of the time is a better situation to be in than having a capability shortfall when you do need it.

Last edited by gf0012-aust; December 19th, 2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Old December 19th, 2012   #70
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When it comes down to it an AWD can stand in for a GP or ASW frigate but not the other way around so you could say an AWD is more multi role than a frigate. Perhaps a mix of Hyuga type, AWDs, Absalons and corvettes, say 3/5/5/10. I don't know if it would be affordable but it sure would be versatile.

Having more capability than you need much of the time is a better situation to be in than having a capability shortfall when you do need it.
yep, if you're going to MRV the skimmer at least try and go for max bang for buck at the high end
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Old December 19th, 2012   #71
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When it comes down to it an AWD can stand in for a GP or ASW frigate but not the other way around so you could say an AWD is more multi role than a frigate. Perhaps a mix of Hyuga type, AWDs, Absalons and corvettes, say 3/5/5/10. I don't know if it would be affordable but it sure would be versatile.

Having more capability than you need much of the time is a better situation to be in than having a capability shortfall when you do need it.
I don't know whether the Absaloms add that much extra capability, particularly if you were to go with corvettes/OPV/LCS fitted with a variety of mission packs.

Really the Hyugas or more particularly the 33DDH helicopter carrier seem to pretty pretty much work like super sized Absaloms.
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Old December 19th, 2012   #72
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I don't know whether the Absaloms add that much extra capability, particularly if you were to go with corvettes/OPV/LCS fitted with a variety of mission packs.

Really the Hyugas or more particularly the 33DDH helicopter carrier seem to pretty pretty much work like super sized Absaloms.
Absalon, not Absalom.

Hyuuga is utterly different from Absalon. One's a multi-role ship, a combination of frigate & transport, with flexible armament & a flex deck which can carry an assortment of equipment or supplies. The other is a dedicated anti-submarine helicopter carrier, meant to lead an ASW flotilla, & armed & equipped solely & permanently for that role.
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Old December 19th, 2012   #73
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Absalon, not Absalom.

Hyuuga is utterly different from Absalon. One's a multi-role ship, a combination of frigate & transport, with flexible armament & a flex deck which can carry an assortment of equipment or supplies. The other is a dedicated anti-submarine helicopter carrier, meant to lead an ASW flotilla, & armed & equipped solely & permanently for that role.
The 22DDH can also carry 400 troops and 50 vehicles. It can carry 14 helicopters but only 7 will be for ASW. Its primary role will be ASW but it seems to have a lot of excess capability.
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Old December 19th, 2012   #74
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Yes, but that's a very different ship from Hyūga & Ise. 22DDH is 50 metres longer & 50% heavier.
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Old December 27th, 2012   #75
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Yes, but that's a very different ship from Hyūga & Ise. 22DDH is 50 metres longer & 50% heavier.
To put it in another way its roughly size of a US WW2 fleet carrier.
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