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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

This is a discussion on Indonesia: 'green water navy' within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; French, Indonesian naval firms extend submarine study Seems like Australia,..Indonesia decided to 'potentially' goes 'French' on the next Submarine projects. ...


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Old April 1st, 2017   #676
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Scorpene ?

French, Indonesian naval firms extend submarine study

Seems like Australia,..Indonesia decided to 'potentially' goes 'French' on the next Submarine projects.
According to this, Indonesia not really happy with the pace of 'tech transfer' on Submarine manufacturing with South Korea..Despite already invest more than USD 100mio on Submarine Yard facility..modelled frm DSME submarine facility..PAL decided to have talk with French DCNS 3 years ago..indicating that as report says..they are not really satisfied with the pace of Submarine cooperation with DSME.

Will it then definetely goes to French ? Well like everything in Indonesian procurement..it full of 'sudden twist' on condition.
Pal besides with DSME on current projects..also talk with French DCNS, Swedish SAAB..and Russian Rubin for potential tech transfer on Submarine.
However DCNS already shown local manufacturing projects with Pakistan and India..thus they do have 'model' for join cooperation that workable for local submarine manufacturing..thus on that side seems DCNS track record can back it up..
So..we'll see when it happen..

@Sandhi Yudha..on Kelewang 'stealth' FPB projects..no much talk on this progress..except that Saab already move out as Tech supplier..seems Saab already seen that the current admin and naval heads did not shown much enthusiasm on the projects. The Navy now shown more intention to invest in litoral FPB with local design 40m and 60 m that churning out from local shipyards.

They want to invest big up to 42 FPB of that PC 40, and PC 60 design, which is based on locally designed Fast Missiles Boats (KCR in Indonesian) 40 and 60.
With Navy intention on KCR 40 and KCR 60 as also PC 40 and PC 60..indicating that Navy wants to invest on more conventional proven design then 'stealth' design on Kelewang.
Still so far in media, they still want to see at least one 'stealth' as tech demonstrator..
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Old April 2nd, 2017   #677
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French, Indonesian naval firms extend submarine study

Seems like Australia,..Indonesia decided to 'potentially' goes 'French' on the next Submarine projects.
According to this, Indonesia not really happy with the pace of 'tech transfer' on Submarine manufacturing with South Korea..Despite already invest more than USD 100mio on Submarine Yard facility..modelled frm DSME submarine facility..PAL decided to have talk with French DCNS 3 years ago..indicating that as report says..they are not really satisfied with the pace of Submarine cooperation with DSME.

Will it then definetely goes to French ? Well like everything in Indonesian procurement..it full of 'sudden twist' on condition.
Pal besides with DSME on current projects..also talk with French DCNS, Swedish SAAB..and Russian Rubin for potential tech transfer on Submarine.
However DCNS already shown local manufacturing projects with Pakistan and India..thus they do have 'model' for join cooperation that workable for local submarine manufacturing..thus on that side seems DCNS track record can back it up..
So..we'll see when it happen..

@Sandhi Yudha..on Kelewang 'stealth' FPB projects..no much talk on this progress..except that Saab already move out as Tech supplier..seems Saab already seen that the current admin and naval heads did not shown much enthusiasm on the projects. The Navy now shown more intention to invest in litoral FPB with local design 40m and 60 m that churning out from local shipyards.

They want to invest big up to 42 FPB of that PC 40, and PC 60 design, which is based on locally designed Fast Missiles Boats (KCR in Indonesian) 40 and 60.
With Navy intention on KCR 40 and KCR 60 as also PC 40 and PC 60..indicating that Navy wants to invest on more conventional proven design then 'stealth' design on Kelewang.
Still so far in media, they still want to see at least one 'stealth' as tech demonstrator..
Thanks for sharing and replying, Ananda!
About the "Scorpene and potential surface vessels"...its just a plan under study.... As you already said, you can expect plot twists any moment....specially cancellations...
Well at least we have ordered 18 more Caesar 155 mm artillery systems, I think that's the first large defence order from this administration, right?
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Old April 2nd, 2017   #678
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To be fair, they (the present admin) are already sign contract for 2nd batch KCR 60 missiles boats and further contract for PC40 and PC60 patrol boats. Also they seems already sign agreement with LM on MLU for original 10 F-16 A/B OCU to have same standard with the upgrade 24 F-15 C/D.

But yes..basically what they are doing right now is finishing previous admin procurements.
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Old April 3rd, 2017   #679
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To be fair, they (the present admin) are already sign contract for 2nd batch KCR 60 missiles boats and further contract for PC40 and PC60 patrol boats. Also they seems already sign agreement with LM on MLU for original 10 F-16 A/B OCU to have same standard with the upgrade 24 F-15 C/D.

But yes..basically what they are doing right now is finishing previous admin procurements.
Well, nice to know that they also doing more than just harvest new defence materials which were all ordered by the previous administration.
About the KCR-60/ Sampari Class, the plan is to order 35 pcs of them in total, right?
The first three of these ships are all armed with old obsolete Bofors 57 Mk1 guns, are these things all second hand? And do they really plan to arm all of those 35 ships with that stuff?
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Old April 4th, 2017   #680
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Sandhi come on..35 KCR 60? Before that they talk 16..then 35..then 42..for KCR both KCR 40 and 60..they change the number so much..sometimes either it's deliberately..or simply they haven't got fix number the budget can support.

So I tend to stick the number set by previous admin Minister of Defence Purnomo then what current administration Mindef said.
Purnomo set the number to aim at 16 KCR 40, 16 KCR 60 and 16 PC 40..so total 48..

This talk of 42 PC 40..or 44 KCR 40 and 60..I still believe it derived of the number targeted by previous admin on total KCR (missile boats) and PC (patrol boats)..that I've mentioned before..afterall they are now basically still following the plan set by previous admin.
The local forum full on speculations of 80+ litoral missiles and patrol boats based on what the media report of 42 PC and 44 KCR..but I believe getting the number that Purnomo's set..is already achievement if they can reach it. Considering the capacity of local shipyard plus the aim for other naval program and available budget..then I again believe that 48 of total KCR and PC is the most they can get..

As for 57mm boffors..well they are still using 40mm old boffors gun frm old ships that being decom..they plan for KCR 60 got 57mk3..but I believe when I see it..
There is also talk on using Chinese Type 730..or even AK-630 (chinese version) that already being put on 1st batch of KCR 40..

Again I believe when I see it..
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Old April 13th, 2017   #681
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Indonesian Navy receives pitch for Type 214 submarine from Golcük Shipyard | IHS Jane's 360

Seems The Turks (which frm what I heard works together with TKMS)..Continue their luck with now 214. Previous bid for 209, they lost to Korean DSME. With the French offering local manufacturing for Scorpene (whether Scorpene 1000 or 2000), it's seems French design vs German design..

The Russian still try their luck with their Latest Kilo's design..but politically..without local manufacturing (which the French, Korean and now Turks/German offering)..don't see how the Russian offer can be accepted.
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Old April 15th, 2017   #682
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Indonesian Navy receives pitch for Type 214 submarine from Golcük Shipyard | IHS Jane's 360

Seems The Turks (which frm what I heard works together with TKMS)..Continue their luck with now 214. Previous bid for 209, they lost to Korean DSME. With the French offering local manufacturing for Scorpene (whether Scorpene 1000 or 2000), it's seems French design vs German design..

The Russian still try their luck with their Latest Kilo's design..but politically..without local manufacturing (which the French, Korean and now Turks/German offering)..don't see how the Russian offer can be accepted.
Well, we will see how it ends. The strongest point from the Type 636 is that it can fire 3M54 anti-ship, anti-submarine and land targets missiles. The Scorpenes can only fire the SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, and from which i understand, the Type 214 is "UGM-84 capable".
But i think the prize and amount of ToT has a higher priority than the capabilities in this acquisition.

Btw, any news about the livery of the first of three Type 209 ordered? The first one should be delivered this year, like the SIGMA 10514 frigates.
Also about the SIGMA 10514, very quiet the last period....

Last edited by Sandhi Yudha; April 16th, 2017 at 02:08 AM. Reason: additional text.
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Old April 17th, 2017   #683
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The first Sigma 10514 Light Frigates/Corvette KRI RE Martadinata already being handed over on 7th this month.
KRI RE Martadinata 331 Perkuat Armada TNI AL di Wilayah Timur | Nasional | Beritasatu.com

While the first DSME 209 will arrived schedulled end of this month or next from DSME Korea. Already named KRI Nagapasa.

The question now is the follow on project of next PKR or DSME 209. Whether PAL will continoue with DSME on Sigma project 10514 or enlarge version (Damen do bring enlarge model of Sigma 11415 to Indodefence last year)..still not set in contract yet.

Also what is the next submarine project that come out from PAL, as they already finishing their Submarine yard..whether still another DSME 209 design..or another design like 214 or Scorpene..it's not set in any contract yet.
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Old April 21st, 2017   #684
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Thank you for sharing Ananda!

"Badan kapal utama memakan biaya hingga US$ 220 juta, sedangkan perlengkapan senilai US$ 110 juta sehingga secara keseluruhan US$ 330 juta."
Well...I really hope it is delivered completely with all sensor and weapon systems, until now i never see an image with the Oerlikon Millenium 35 mm CIWS installed.

The first SIGMA 10514 fregat, KRI RE Martadinata 331, was handed over to TNI-AL on 7 April, but this important event was not really exposed in the Indonesian media....

I also found this, http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/...dy-martadinata , but Damen/Koninklijke Schelde doesn't give much information.

I also can not find any information about the SIGMA 11415 design....
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Old April 23rd, 2017   #685
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Sorry, it should be Sigma 11516, got this drawing from Damen news sites, when they bring the model to last year Indodefence. But sorry can't attach it, since it's larger then the forum regulations on attachements.

Basically it's enlarge version of 10514, from the drawing seems have provision for 8 Mk 41 VLS..but then again it's my interpretation based on the drawing. Got provision for 2 RHIB davit in slipway models in stern (kind of PALFINGER Marine models)..at least the model in Indodefence shown that..
Well asside frm that..it's similar in appearences to 10514.

There are talks that Damen bring the design cause for 2nd batch PKR, TNI-AL wants larger design.again it's just talk, since the 2nd batch PKR contract still not have any definitive info when to be signed..it should be this year..but you know how the tracked record on Jokowi's admin on closing procurement contract..
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Old April 28th, 2017   #686
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Thank you for sharing Ananda!

"Badan kapal utama memakan biaya hingga US$ 220 juta, sedangkan perlengkapan senilai US$ 110 juta sehingga secara keseluruhan US$ 330 juta."
Well...I really hope it is delivered completely with all sensor and weapon systems, until now i never see an image with the Oerlikon Millenium 35 mm CIWS installed.

The first SIGMA 10514 fregat, KRI RE Martadinata 331, was handed over to TNI-AL on 7 April, but this important event was not really exposed in the Indonesian media....

I also found this, Sigma Class Frigate 10514 "Raden Eddy Martadinata" , but Damen/Koninklijke Schelde doesn't give much information.

I also can not find any information about the SIGMA 11415 design....
Looking to the images of https://jakartagreater.com/pkr-sigma...tanjung-wangi/ and https://jakartagreater.com/menteri-p...rtadinata-331/ , i think we can come to conclusion that, although one fregat costs us $330.000.000, it is an almost toothless warship. No Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS installed, no MM40 Mk3 launchers and maybe also no MICAs.... I dont understand why we have the habit to build/order new warships only armed with guns and thus almost worthless on the modern battlefield.

This is about KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai 332: https://jakartagreater.com/penampila...gurah-rai-332/ .....and maybe this will also become a defenceless $330.000.000 only good enough for Hari ABRI millitary parades.

But now something else.
I didn't know that TNI-AL has ordered a third LPD from PAL.
https://jakartagreater.com/pt-pal-ke...omment-1375255
The remarkable thing is that it looks similar to the Korean-made LPDs and that it will have a length of 124 meters, 1 meter longer than the Korean-made (KRI Makassar 590 + KRI Surabaya 591) and 1 meter shorter than the Indonesian-made ones (KRI Banjarmasin 592 + KRI Banda Aceh 593). And ofcourse i expect that it will be armed with an old second hand manually operated Bofors 40 mm gun.
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Old April 29th, 2017   #687
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I don't know where you got that USD 300 Mio figure as base model cost. As far as I know the base model cost is USD 220 Mio..and the overall package USD 300 Mio++ including Exocet SSM, Mica VL, Sylver VLS (either A35 or A43), and Rheinmettal Oerlikon Millenium CIWS.

The initial contract of USD 220 Mio is only for base model and 76mm Oto Melara gun, and sensors. Additional seperated contract will be for those other weapon system, which is why the hand over is not with those weapons systems asside the 76mm gun. Still is not something new, the Indonesian procurement has many contracts where weapons will be procured on next seperate contracts when budget already provided. Indonesian procurement used to get platform with minimal weapons first, then other contracts followed for the rest weapons-system packages.

As for the new LPD, off course it's followed Balikpapan class configuration, however looking the specs especially troops carrying capacity, I do believe it's more following Philipines SSV, that being builded by PAL. There are a lot off weapons system that being taken from decomissioning ships,and 40mm bofors are quite abundance...so it's no surprises many of it will come down to secondary layer ships like the LPD or the LST. Afterall with budget procurement is more on platform oriented first, then you can be sure they will recycle as much as weapon system that still possible..

Speaking of LST, it's confirmed that TNI-AL will get 7 of Bintuni LST as replacement of old ex WW2 US made LST that already decom.

Indonesia to receive three new 120 m LSTs by 2018 | IHS Jane's 360

Privately Owned DRU shipyard previously got contract for 2 LST while State Owned Kodja Bahari shipyard got the other 2 LST contract. Thus made 4 LST Bintuni class. Seems DRU shown more reliable delivery, thus the next batch contract of 3 LST being given all to DRU Shipyard.

Those Bintuni class LST will complement 6 South Korean made Tacoma class LST, and 12 ex East German Frosch. Frm what I heard, only 8-10 Frosch and 5 Tacoma LST that still operational. Thus some speculation come out that more Banjarmasin type LPD or Bintuni class LST will be further build, to take over Frosch capacity, since it's projected those ex East German LST won't last much longger, which then will be follow by those South Korean build LST. All of those build in the 80's even mid 70's for some East German Frosch. Thus I believe more Banjarmasin LPD and Bintuni LST type derivatives will come out in the future, if TNI-AL want to keep maintain it's quite substantial Amphibious capacities.
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Old April 29th, 2017   #688
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With Indonesia's geography I expect that quite a lot of amphibious shipping is needed to support the army, & I'm sure it's very useful when there's a natural disaster. It's logical for Indonesia to have plenty of amphibious ships.
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Old April 29th, 2017   #689
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Yes, at the peak of capacity, TNI-AL have 6 ex US WW2 LST, 6 South Korean build Tacoma LST, and 12 ex East German LST. That's 24 LST, conducting mostly military sea lift/logistics operations within Archipelago.

Banjarmasin LPD and Bintuni LST is bigger than those Old LST, however to maintain the capacity of those 24 LST, I believe based on capacity of Banjarmasin LPD and Bintuni LST, they have to get at least 6 Banjarmasin LPD and 12 Bintuni LST, to completely replace capacity of 24 old LST. So, with Tacoma and Frosch LST need to be replaced all within 8-10 years, more of LPD and LST need to be churn out by local shipyards. PAL do have 190m LHD design, but I believe it's need to be revised and perfected more, before can be attractive for TNI-AL.
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Old May 12th, 2017   #690
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Turkish, German firms eye Indonesian sub contract

Turkish Golcuk shipyard and German TKMS has made arrangement in IDEF defense show to collaborate on offering Type 214 subs to Indonesia. This is the 2nd time they collaborate for Indonesian Sub deal. Previously they are defeted by South Korea DSME.

Seems TKMS quite confident on this, since frm what I gather DSME eventough also build type 214, but their license frm TKMS prohibited them to sell it to other country..while on type 209 Chang Bo Go class, they already made substantial modification which entitle them to put the design as DSME 209, thus able to offered it export market on their own.
I might be wrong on type 214, on whether DSME license for 214 also enable them to sell to overseas market..thus compete with TKMS it self, as original license holder.

Anyway, all this is for potential 2nd batch submarine as follow on 1st batch of 3 DSME 209. So far the candidate are French Scorpene 2000 or 1000, Type 214, and another batch of DSME 209. Saab also been reported to try to enter with derivatives of Gotland design.
All of the candidate must ensure that majority of submarine they offered will be build in PAL new submarine facility in Surabaya.
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