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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

This is a discussion on Indonesia: 'green water navy' within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; The area around malasyia, souhtern philippines and indonesia is a bit of a wild west. Bandits, terrorists, pirates and smugglers ...


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Old October 23rd, 2005   #46
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

The area around malasyia, souhtern philippines and indonesia is a bit of a wild west. Bandits, terrorists, pirates and smugglers are able to cross unimpeded. Just a few years ago some bandit/terrorists swiped hostages from sipadan malaysia and took them to the southern philippines unimpeded. And through those seas many believe pass the pirated DVD's that are sold in Manila's street corners.
It is in everyone's interest that these waters be policed effectively. Before rogue naval officers are court martialed they first need to be caught. But aren't fast patrol boats better suited to that purpose than what indonesia's getting?
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Old October 24th, 2005   #47
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

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But aren't fast patrol boats better suited to that purpose than what indonesia's getting?
I believed TNI-AL more concerned of the development of the regional navies. They need the firepower. Most of TNI-AL missile inventory are made off MM-38 missile, lack of range compared to their neighbouring states inventory which already operates MM-40 Block II and Harpoon.

Anyhow, to meet the growing threat from piracy, the regional cooperation is initiated so called `Eye in the Sky' programme whereas three navy, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore agreed to joint patrol and sharing intelligence data. Hope this will alleviate the burden of individual state of ensuring the safety of their maritime border.

Again...
Why TNI opt for corvette instead of frigate? Budget constraint? (which is one of major reasons for any of the navies).

Why not go for second hand frigate if that the case...TNI-AL Frigate KRI Ahmad Yanni is a second hand ship but a formidable one in this region.
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Old October 24th, 2005   #48
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

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Originally Posted by CSS

Again...
Why TNI opt for corvette instead of frigate? Budget constraint? (which is one of major reasons for any of the navies).

Why not go for second hand frigate if that the case...TNI-AL Frigate KRI Ahmad Yanni is a second hand ship but a formidable one in this region.
Indonesias principle requirements are defined by the fact that they are primarily designed to support and deal with internal issues. She has over 7000 islands in the Republic to police and monitor. A blue water solution would not be that useful in that sense.
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Old October 25th, 2005
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Old October 26th, 2005   #49
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

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Originally Posted by CSS
I believed TNI-AL more concerned of the development of the regional navies. They need the firepower. Most of TNI-AL missile inventory are made off MM-38 missile, lack of range compared to their neighbouring states inventory which already operates MM-40 Block II and Harpoon.

Anyhow, to meet the growing threat from piracy, the regional cooperation is initiated so called `Eye in the Sky' programme whereas three navy, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore agreed to joint patrol and sharing intelligence data. Hope this will alleviate the burden of individual state of ensuring the safety of their maritime border.

Again...
Why TNI opt for corvette instead of frigate? Budget constraint? (which is one of major reasons for any of the navies).

Why not go for second hand frigate if that the case...TNI-AL Frigate KRI Ahmad Yanni is a second hand ship but a formidable one in this region.
SSM is just one of the problem for TNI-AL and now MM-40 Block II ( perhaps in Sigma class corvette), indigenious short range SSM (Rudal Nasional which is now in developing phase), Chinesse made C-802 (mounted on FPB-57) and the latest issue..yakhont. Those are the perfect replacement for MM-38 and Harpoon.

Why corvette? well, why not? People said littoral warfare will more likely happen in the future than in the ocean(beside budget constraint of course ). If so, corvette is the right answer. Relatively cheaper the fregate and has the same firepower. At least that's the reason why TNI-AL looking for corvette in Netherland, local shipyard and now in Russia.
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Old January 7th, 2006   #50
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:I5NZfWGTc5wJ:www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp%3Ffileid%3D20060105.A06%26irec %3D5+RI+to+buy+warships,+subs+from+Russia,+Germany &hl=id"]RI to buy warships, subs from Russia, Germany


Rendi Akhmad Witular, The Jakarta Post, Bandung, West Java

The country's inferior sea defense capability is likely to get a boost by 2009, as the government explores buying three new warships from Russia worth about US$335 million and several "kilo-class" attack submarines possibly from Germany.

A Ministry of Defense team is currently in talks with Russian officials on the best way to buy the warships, which could include a corvette, a destroyer and a frigate.

"We are approaching the Russians to explore the possibility of buying the warships and a sea transport helicopter. I expect that within the next two months there will be a definite outcome on this matter," Ministry of Defense secretary-general Lt. Gen. Sjafrie Sjamsoeddin told The Jakarta Post recently.

He said the total price of the three warships and the helicopter were "about the same" as the two corvettes Indonesia bought in 2004 from the Netherlands, about $335 million in total.

The two newly built corvettes are scheduled to arrive in Indonesia in 2007 and 2008, with the Dutch government agreeing to gradually transfer warship-making technology to Indonesia.

"Based on the guidance from President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, the criteria for the purchase should be based partly on a relatively competitive price, but also on high quality. We believe Russia is (a war machine supplier) that meets both these requirements," said Sjafrie.

The country is expected to spend about Rp 28 trillion ($2.83 billion) this year on military spending, up from Rp 23.3 trillion in 2005. Most of the funds will be used to procure Navy and Air Force equipment.

However, any warship purchases from Russia were unlikely to be made any time soon, because of the government's limited ability to pay, Sjafrie said.

"There will be no massive buy-up of defense equipment and warships this year. Our focus will remain on maintaining and upgrading our war machines. Should there be a deal with Russia, it is unlikely to be realized this year," he said.

The government's wants a strong military force to deal with threats at home, such as separatist movements, and also to protect its borders.

The defense budget of the world's fourth-largest country is considered relatively low compared to smaller neighbors like Thailand and Malaysia.

It doesn't help that the Indonesian Military's equipment has been steadily deteriorating, partly as a result of the 13-year arms embargo imposed on Indonesia by the United States. That ban came after Indonesian troops and civilian militias committed gross human rights violations in East Timor. The U.S. only lifted the embargo in November.

Aside from warships, the government is also planning to buy two or three submarines capable of operating in deep waters. The first country being considered for the purchase is Germany, which is considered one of the world's best producers of kilo-class submersibles.

"We are planning to buy two or three kilo-class submarines between 2007 and 2009. We haven't decided on the country yet, but our best bet is currently Germany. But due to the budget constraints, we are also looking at other countries," said Sjafrie, refusing to mention a price tag.

Indonesia has only two diesel-powered submarines -- the Cakra and the Nanggala -- for its 3.2 million square kilometers of coastlines and seas.

Purchased from Germany in 1981, they are currently being overhauled in South Korea.


I've got this news from Indonesian forum.Another news about the subs, if we don't buy from German, Indonesian Navy may buy 2 kilo-class submarine and 4 amur-class submarine from Russian.
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Old January 7th, 2006   #51
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Australia should immediately strip Indonesia of the $1B aid package after the tsunami. If they are able to spend $335M on military equipment, then they can fund their own disaster relief.
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Old January 7th, 2006   #52
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Red face Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Well, i think it was a paradox, why we spend our money to the army, when there was a lot of natural disaster happen in Indonesia (not only a tsunami).
But i think our government concern to equip our Armed Forces with a new ship, plane or tanks is due to the fact that lot of our military equipment is a very-very old product.And it can risk the life of our soldier, that's why we try to equip our soldier with a new-product.
By the way, after the flood that happen in some province in Indonesia, i heard that Australia give some help to assist the refugee.
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Old January 7th, 2006   #53
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

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By the way, after the flood that happen in some province in Indonesia, i heard that Australia give some help to assist the refugee.
There are still australians in Indonesia helping out. some of our people were killed in a helicopter accident trying to help villagers.
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Old January 7th, 2006   #54
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Sorry fo out of topic, GF is the helicopter crash happen in Aceh or in another province ? Today we have a lot of rain and it makes some of our Armed Forces helicopter that try to help the vilaggers from the flood in Central and East Java stop their operation.
My condolence for the Australian who lost their live.
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Old January 8th, 2006   #55
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

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Sorry fo out of topic, GF is the helicopter crash happen in Aceh or in another province ? Today we have a lot of rain and it makes some of our Armed Forces helicopter that try to help the vilaggers from the flood in Central and East Java stop their operation.
My condolence for the Australian who lost their live.
Yep, the RAN Sea King crashed in Aceh. Whilst the helicopter was a big loss (it only left 6 remaining) the human total was much greater with 30% of the RAN's entire Sea King aircrew lost.

It was very sad and a blow the RAN will take years to recover from.
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Old January 9th, 2006   #56
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Re: Indonesia: 'green water navy'

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Yep, the RAN Sea King crashed in Aceh.
Remember it was in Nias after the earthquake that the navy lost her people, not Aceh after the tidal wave(I am rebelling against the conquest of tidal wave by tsunami )
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Old April 3rd, 2006   #57
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US lifts ban on sale of lethal arms to Indonesia
By Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - Moving with unusual speed, the administration of US President George W Bush officially normalized military relations with Indonesia on Wednesday when the State Department posted a formal notice permitting the sale of lethal military equipment to Jakarta for the first time in seven years.

The announcement in the Federal Register came just two weeks after Condoleezza Rice made her maiden visit as US secretary of state to the Indonesian capital, where she called for closer ties with the military as part of an expanded "strategic partnership" with the sprawling Southeast Asian nation of more than 200 million people.

It also follows the State Department's announcement last November that it intended to waive congressionally imposed human-rights conditions on military aid and sales to Indonesia in appreciation of Jakarta's "unique strategic role in Southeast Asia".

"This marks the final legal step to open up the arms flow to the Indonesian military," John Miller, director of the East Timor and Indonesian Action Network (ETAN), said of the Federal Register notice. "It remains for Indonesia to draw up a shopping list of items they want to buy."

ETAN, along with several other major rights groups, including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, has strongly opposed the restoration of full military ties with Indonesia until the government of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono makes much greater progress in asserting control over the country's armed forces (TNI) and prosecuting officers responsible for serious abuses, particularly in East Timor.

They have argued that normalizing military relations now gives the army a "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" that will in effect encourage it to resist reforms that would make it more accountable to civilian authority and improve its human-rights practices.

"The thing about the renewal of the military relationship is that it gives a political boost to the army and makes it more likely that they will stave off pressure for reforms," said Daniel Lev, an Indonesia expert at the University of Washington in Seattle. Yudhoyono, he said, "is pushing very hard for reforms, but none really has to do with the army, which is the core of the problem".

The US Congress first imposed military-related sanctions against the TNI in 1991 after a widely reported massacre against unarmed protesters in East Timor, a province that had been invaded and subsequently annexed by Suharto's New Order regime in the mid-1970s. Over the next eight years, Congress gradually added restrictions on the military-to-military relations because of evidence that the army's human-rights performance had not improved.

In August 1999, the TNI and TNI-backed militias went on a deadly and destructive rampage in East Timor after its inhabitants voted overwhelmingly in favor of independence in a United Nations-backed plebiscite. Congress responded by severing virtually all military ties, making their restoration conditional on a number of mostly rights-related reforms, including the prosecution and punishment of those responsible for the mayhem in East Timor.

But the terrorist attacks on New York and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, changed the mood in Washington. The Bush administration began pressing Congress to exempt from the ban certain kinds of military assistance, such as "anti-terrorist" training and equipment, joint military maneuvers, and the supply of some "non-lethal" military equipment.

This was despite overwhelming evidence that the TNI was not only refusing to cooperate in efforts to bring to justice the perpetrators of the East Timor violence, but was also engaged in serious abuses on other islands, including Aceh, West Papua, and the Malukus.

After the tsunami disaster of December 2004, the administration accelerated the pace toward normalization. In February, it lifted the ban on Indonesia's participation in its International Military Education Training (IMET) program and in May, it exempted from the ban on military sales certain kinds of "non-lethal" military equipment.

Congress nonetheless remained skeptical and last November extended the ban on certain kinds of financing for military equipment and training and on licenses for the export of "lethal" military equipment until the secretary of state could certify that three conditions are being met by Jakarta and the TNI.

They included the prosecution and punishment of TNI members "who have been credibly alleged to have committed gross violations of human rights"; cooperation by the TNI with civilian judicial authorities and international efforts to resolve gross abuses in East Timor and elsewhere; and implementation of reforms "to improve civilian control of the military".

The bill, however, also provided that the administration could waive these conditions in the interests of "national security". Unable to certify that Jakarta was indeed meeting these conditions, the State Department decided to waive them in late November, although in doing so, it stressed that it remained "committed" to the fulfillment of Congress' conditions and would only approve sales of "lethal equipment" on a "case-by-case basis". The latter assurance was included in the Federal Register's announcement on Wednesday.

Between November and this week, however, Washington made no secret of its eagerness to normalize ties fully despite the emergence of new evidence in January that the TNI had been involved in the murders of two US teachers in Papua in 2002.

In its budget request for 2007, the State Department increased Indonesia's IMET allocation by 50% and asked Congress to approve more than US$6 million dollars to aid Indonesia's purchases of military equipment - a nearly sevenfold increase over the previous year.

At the same time, Admiral William Fallon, commander of the US Pacific Command, publicly urged a "rapid, concerted infusion of assistance" to the Indonesian military.

Washington's major strategic interests in Indonesia relate to its status as, in the words of the State Department, "the world's most populous majority-Muslim nation" and "a voice of moderation in the Islamic world" at a time when Washington is engaged in its "global war on terror" against radical Islamists. In addition, its proximity to and control over some of the world's most important sea lanes has long given it a special cachet with the United States.

Indonesia has also long been seen as a potential ally in US efforts to "contain" China in Asia and the Pacific, a theme that dominated Rice's tour in the region this month, which climaxed in a meeting with her Australian and Japanese counterparts.

The Pentagon reportedly is most eager to upgrade Indonesia's maritime forces to help it secure the strategic sea lanes against potential threats, which include piracy, terrorist operations, and, presumably, China's efforts to build a blue-ocean navy. In addition, Indonesia's navy is considered the least problematic of the country's armed forces from a human-rights perspective.

The TNI, according to analysts, has placed a higher priority on upgrading and securing spare parts for its fleet of aging fleet of warplanes, some of which have been used for counter-insurgency operations.

(Inter Press Service)

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Eager to upgrade eh? I wonder if this will translate into donated ships like the Perry (OHP) class Frigates offered to Pakistan?
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Old March 6th, 2008   #58
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Indonesia now has 3 Korean-built LPDs in service. KRI 990 Dr. Soeharso (ex-KRI 972 Tanjung Dalpele) serving as a hospital ship, KRI 590 Makasar & KRI 591 Surabaya, plus two more of the same class under construction in Indonesia.

They're fairly basic LPDs, but probably perfectly adequate for Indonesia, to be used mainly for carrying cargo between islands, some of which lack proper ports, & very useful if there's another tsunami. Very cheap, too. Might have potential for other navies with requirements for modest amphibious capability to replace old & worn-out ships, especially those using their ships mainly as coastal & island transports.
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Old March 7th, 2008   #59
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Indonesia now has 3 Korean-built LPDs in service. KRI 990 Dr. Soeharso (ex-KRI 972 Tanjung Dalpele) serving as a hospital ship, KRI 590 Makasar & KRI 591 Surabaya, plus two more of the same class under construction in Indonesia.

They're fairly basic LPDs, but probably perfectly adequate for Indonesia, to be used mainly for carrying cargo between islands, some of which lack proper ports, & very useful if there's another tsunami. Very cheap, too. Might have potential for other navies with requirements for modest amphibious capability to replace old & worn-out ships, especially those using their ships mainly as coastal & island transports.
Any news about the SSK acquisition from Russia ? I remember talks about both Lada and improved Kilo. The 2 old type 209s must be hardly operational despite the South Korean refit.

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Old March 7th, 2008   #60
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Would Australia send Armidales or Anzacs if the Indoneasian government asked them to send them in to assist in combating piracy. Plus our Commandoes with our flashy new boats could probably whoop a few pirates or two. Dont know why they don't get the Indonesian army involved with some mortars from the shore? or have they tried that? They are probably best purchasing some attack helicopters and getting rid of their suhkois why do they need them?
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