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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

This is a discussion on Indonesia: 'green water navy' within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Could be the Type 22 frigates (batch 3) HMS Cumberland(F85), HMS Campbeltown (F86) ,HMS Chatham(F87) and HMS Cornwall(F99). All were ...


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Old November 3rd, 2012   #481
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Could be the Type 22 frigates (batch 3) HMS Cumberland(F85), HMS Campbeltown (F86) ,HMS Chatham(F87) and HMS Cornwall(F99). All were retired in 2011 and are awaiting disposal.
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Old November 3rd, 2012   #482
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Could be the Type 22 frigates (batch 3) HMS Cumberland(F85), HMS Campbeltown (F86) ,HMS Chatham(F87) and HMS Cornwall(F99). All were retired in 2011 and are awaiting disposal.
Well according to the Article, the MoU stated MLRF thus Light Frigate. Type 22 certainly can not be catagorise as Light Frigate. Local forum used to talk about Type 22 batch 3, when the then rumours of TNI-AL and mindef officials going to UK early this year for possible procurement of 3 UK made Frigates. However when it's increasingly become clearer that they are looking for light frigates, the Nahkoda Ragam came to attention in here.

I do wander though if any other UK made light frigates in the market other than those NR class.

Some insight info on local forum claimed coming from unofficial mindef source, indicated they move to NR after evaluating type 22 batch 3 and found they will cost much more to recommisioned then NR class.
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Old November 5th, 2012   #483
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This sort of Confirmation that the 3 MRLF that being procured from UK's is ex Brunei Nahkoda Ragam class.

From Investor Daily
Indonesia Bakal Miliki Frigate Inggris | Investor Daily

Basically the Article stated that the 3 vessels were previously ordered by Brunei. The price that Indonesia will have to pay is only 20% of Brunei's procurement price. Well in the sense Indonesia practically but that NR class with 80% discount.

However no confirmation whether that price include the weapon system.
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Old November 6th, 2012   #484
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I do wander though if any other UK made light frigates in the market other than those NR class.
Yarrow has a slightly larger/improved version of the F-2000 frigate on offer, it has room to take, if required, a 32 cell VLS, plus room in the stern for a towed array. The Nakhoda Ragams are based on the F-2000 design, which was sold to Malaysia as the Lekiu class. The main external difference between the Lekiu class - which is slightly larger - and the Nakhoda Ragam is the availability of a hangar on the Lekiu class. Other British shipbuilders which had light frigate designs for sale were Vosper and Swan Hunter, both of which are no longer in the shipbuilding business.

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indicated they move to NR after evaluating type 22 batch 3 and found they will cost much more to recommisioned then NR class.
The Type 22s would have been more expensive to operate as they are larger ships and due to their age, are most probably more maintenance intensive.

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The price that Indonesia will have to pay is only 20% of Brunei's procurement price. Well in the sense Indonesia practically but that NR class with 80% discount.
Lurssen was appointed by the Bruneian government some years ago to maintain the corvettes and to find a buyer for them. Presumably, if Indonesia is getting a huge discount, the deal might be a government to government transaction and Lurssen will be compensated.
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Old November 6th, 2012   #485
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Yarrow? You mean BAe. Hasn't been Yarrow for a long time.
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Old November 6th, 2012   #486
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Yarrow? You mean BAe. Hasn't been Yarrow for a long time.
Yes you're right, I meant BAE Systems. If I'm not mistaken, Yarrow was a subsidiary of GEC-Marconi, which was later bought over by British Aerospace [now BAE Systems]. Now that Swan Hunter and Vosper are no longer in the shipbuilding business, are there any companies apart from BAE Systems that have the capability to construct naval vessels?
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Old November 6th, 2012   #487
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Yes you're right, I meant BAE Systems. If I'm not mistaken, Yarrow was a subsidiary of GEC-Marconi, which was later bought over by British Aerospace [now BAE Systems]. Now that Swan Hunter and Vosper are no longer in the shipbuilding business, are there any companies apart from BAE Systems that have the capability to construct naval vessels?
Devonport dockyard? it has quite impressive infrastructure and performs some maintenance work of some kind (I would love to be clarified) for the Royal Navy...
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Old November 6th, 2012   #488
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Devonport dockyard? it has quite impressive infrastructure and performs some maintenance work of some kind (I would love to be clarified) for the Royal Navy...
HMNB Devonport does some serious maintenance work for the RN. Like right now HMS Vengeance is in drydock and will be for about the next 3 years, it's the home of the UK's amphibious assault fleet bar Illustrious, a number of Type 23s and SSNs (last I heard) and probably some patrol craft. IIRC it's where all the UKs SSN fleet goes for refit and the like.

As to contruction work, AFAIK Devonport doesn't do that at all.
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Old November 6th, 2012   #489
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Yes you're right, I meant BAE Systems. If I'm not mistaken, Yarrow was a subsidiary of GEC-Marconi, which was later bought over by British Aerospace [now BAE Systems]. Now that Swan Hunter and Vosper are no longer in the shipbuilding business, are there any companies apart from BAE Systems that have the capability to construct naval vessels?
Do you mean companies, or yards? The former Vospers yard at Portsmouth is still operating, under BAe ownership, as are the Govan & Scotstoun (former Yarrow) yards in Glasgow. They're all building CVF blocks. Barrow builds SSNs, but can also build surface ships - though not as large as CVF.

All the above are BAe.

Appledore in Devon (owned by Babcock) can build small warships. Currently building CVF blocks & OPVs for Ireland. Babcock also owns the Rosyth yard which is assembling CVF.

A&P at Newcastle is building CVF blocks. It has a dock big enough for anything short of CVF (259 x 44 metres) A&P Tees has a dock plenty big enough for a Type 26 with room to spare, & a dock big enough for small frigates, though it'd need money spent & more workers hired & trained to take on what Scotstoun & Govan are doing.

A&P Falmouth currently does ship repair, with docks of 252.8 x 39.6m, 221 x 26.8m, & 172.5 & 26.2m.

Harland & Wolff still has two very large docks, currently only used for repair of large vessels, but potentially they could be turned back into building docks. Could potentially assemble blocks built elsewhere.

Cammell Laird at Birkenhead is building CVF blocks. It has docks from 125 x 21m to 289 x 42.7m. Hasn't built a whole ship for a long time, but it's now building a couple of ferries. Would take some time & investment to revive as a warship builder.

Able UK has a gigantic dock on Teesside, the Graythorp dock - but it's not equipped for building warships. Currently used for scrapping, & jobs such as fitting out oil rigs.

So . . . plenty of facilities, but mostly not currently equipped or staffed for building complete warships.

Last edited by swerve; November 7th, 2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2012   #490
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Do you mean companies, or yards? The former Vospers yard at Portsmouth is still operating, under BAe ownership, as are the Govan & Scotstoun (former Yarrow) yards in Glasgow. They're all building CVF blocks. Barrow (not BAe) builds SSNs, but can also build surface ships - though not as large as CVF.

All the above are BAe.
Swerve, just confirmation. You wrote Barrow is not BAe, however you also stated all the above is part of BAe. So which is the right one, Barrow is not part of BAe, or now already part of BAe. Thanks.

Seems now BAe now is holding close to monopoly possition on British Arms manufacturing. Am I correct to pressume that ?

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Lurssen was appointed by the Bruneian government some years ago to maintain the corvettes and to find a buyer for them. Presumably, if Indonesia is getting a huge discount, the deal might be a government to government transaction and Lurssen will be compensated.
from what I heard on sevaral unofficial sources in here. This deal actually a three way G to G deal, between UK, Indonesia and Brunei.

Anyway, I can say for high degree of certainty, that there will be another package of deal for weaponized those vessels. Some sources in PAL say that PAL is looking for VL MICA for SAM in their Sigma based Light Frigate project. Thus if this is true, there's good possibility VL MICA and not VL Sea Wolf will be chosen for those ex NR.

From what I gather, the VL Sea Wolf already strip away from those NR Frigates, thus Indonesia need to find new one anyway, if want to equiped those NR with AAW capabilities.
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Old November 7th, 2012   #491
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Slip of the brain. Barrow is BAe.

Lurssen is acting as an agent in the Nakhoda Ragam sale. It has not bought the ships. They are the property of the government of Brunei, which tried to refuse to pay but lost in court & paid up. Lurssen would be paid a fee or commission on a sale, & Brunei would get the rest.

Lurssen would only be eligible for compensation if the sale was in breach of the contract between Lurssen & Brunei.

I agree that Sea Wolf will probably not be part of the sale. It will soon be retired from the RN. I think VL Mica fits in the same VLS, but would need changes to the guidance. A pretty easy swap.
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Old November 7th, 2012   #492
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From Tempo on line:
Indonesia Akan Beli Peralatan Militer dari Inggris | nasional | Mobile Tempo.co

Sorry did not translate first. Basically an MoU between Indonesia and UK being signed Thursday in London which include procurement on several UK weapons like Starstreak short range SAM and Multipurpose Light Frigates (MLRF).

Well so far I do not know any other UK made MLRF on market asside ex Brunai Nahkoda Ragam. If this is NR class then I presume it will replace 3 old Tribal frigates that being decomm by TNI-AL, but has not been replaced so far.
That *is* interesting - I note "sniper weapons" is included - I'm guessing they'd have to be AAI rifles, like the Predator. The light frigate thing is puzzling unless they're buying the ex-Brunei Ragam's as you say - in which case they'll need some technical changes as they're fitted with SeaWolf, which goes end of life in a few years.
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Old November 7th, 2012   #493
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Lurssen is acting as an agent in the Nakhoda Ragam sale.
Yes Lurssen was appointed to maintain the ships and to find a buyer for them, originally BAE Systems was supposed to have responsible for finding them a new owner. I believe the main reason Lurssen was appointed was because it was already in talks to supply the RBN with OPVs. At one time, Pakistan expressed a keen interest in the ships but nothing came out of it, same thing happened with Algeria. I know for a fact that BAE Systems [prior to Lurssen coming into the picture] had also tried to interest the Malaysian government in these ships. The ships were known to be a bit pricy because the RBN specified a higher grade of steel to be used in the construction and also, the fittings in the living compartments were of a high standard.

Last edited by STURM; November 7th, 2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old November 18th, 2012   #494
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the fittings in the living compartments were of a high standard.
Wow! I'm imagining a cappuccino maker, electric massage sofa, and spring bed on the bed bunks with nice fluffy pillows for the crews.

I hope I'm not getting booted with what I've just said.... but hehe I can't help it.
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Old December 4th, 2012   #495
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Kongsberg system for Indonesian Subs (from DEFESA Global): DEFESA Global

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Kongsberg Defence Systems has signed a US$55.5 million contract with the Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME) shipbuilder from South Korea to supply of MSI-90U Mk 2 naval combat management system components for three new submarines.

It is understood the systems are for the three U209-1400 based submarines purchased by Indonesia in December 2011.
Previously the two existing Type 209 which being upgraded in South Korea also used Kongsberg as their combat management system. It's logical the three type 209 upgrade that being build in South Korea shares communality with the upgraded project of existing subs.
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