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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

This is a discussion on Indonesia: 'green water navy' within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by STURM T These would make a welcome addition to the TNI-AL but would also mean that the ...


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Old March 4th, 2012   #376
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These would make a welcome addition to the TNI-AL but would also mean that the TNI-AL would have to support another missile, CMS, radar, engines, ESM, etc. They are also not fitted with a hangar and at a defence show a few years ago, I was told by someone at the BAE Systems stand that they are fitted with an active jammer. If I'm not mistaken no ship in the TNI-AL has an active jammer.
I could not answered that. The 4 Sigma supposedly equipped with 'Nato' standard electronics. However the overall detail of the electronics and sensors seems still being kept hidden. Afterall this 'active' jammer on Nahkoda RAgam if I'm not mistaken also not included on the official list.
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Old March 4th, 2012   #377
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I could not answered that. The 4 Sigma supposedly equipped with 'Nato' standard electronics. However the overall detail of the electronics and sensors seems still being kept hidden. Afterall this 'active' jammer on Nahkoda RAgam if I'm not mistaken also not included on the official list.
I don't have a detailed list of what the TNI-ALs Sigmas are fitted with but the engines, CMS, radar, fire director, etc, on the Sigmas and Nakhoda Radams are different. Being British built, the Nakhoda Ragams have a lot of ''Made In Britain'' stuff. I suspect that the Nakhoda Ragams, like the Lekiu class, has Link Y.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lekiu/
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Old March 7th, 2012   #378
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guys,
Indonesian navy is planning to procure some Orizzonte Class Frigate from Italy.
Is it right ? I think it would be great for the Navy, since the Van speijk Class is already ageing
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Old March 9th, 2012   #379
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guys,
Indonesian navy is planning to procure some Orizzonte Class Frigate from Italy.
Is it right ? I think it would be great for the Navy, since the Van speijk Class is already ageing
They (Mindef) now only talking getting ex Brunai orders Nahkoda Ragam class corvetes from BAE. Orrizonte is only some wishfull dream from Local fanboys. Some local fanboys including some Blog owners think that since Italy in economic trouble they will let their 2 brand new Orrizonte for sale. Never heard on that from Italian sources, thus just like I say some wishfull wild dream from local Fanboys.

Mindef is talking with Italian but it's for PKR (Light Frigates/Corvetes) projects. The design for PKR won by Damen beating Fincantieri (Damen based on Sigma 105 M, while Fincantieri based on enlarged 104 M Commandante design). However seems there's problem when dealing with Damen, thus Mindef approaching Fincantieri again.

Soma other talked in local forum also put getting Maestralle Frigates (that will be replaced by FREEM in Italian service). In my oppinion getting Maestralle is more realistics for Van Speijk replacement. However TNI-AL already say, that they're not in hurry on getting new Frigates, but concentrating more on enlarging their Fast Patrol Boats and Corvetes fleets. It's reasonable since operating costs of 1 Frigates will be equivalent for operating costs of 2 Corvetes or 4 Missiles FPB. And TNI-AL now need more larger number of vessels then larger vessels.
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Old March 23rd, 2012   #380
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hello, i would like to join discussion here
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The only 'true' Frigates right now in TNI-AL is Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk/Leander class. The other (Fatahillah, Dipenogoro/Sigma, Patimura/Parchim) even though some called them 'light frigates' but more incline as 'large corvette'. So only those 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani that can be equipped with Yakhont.

Your arguments seems has been considered by TNI-AL, that's why I believe they also try out Exocet MM 40 and Chinese C-802 besides Yakhont as replacement for Van Speijk Harpoon. All other SSM in TNI-AL inventory is Exocet MM-38 which seems according to this will be replaced by C-705.

In paper, Exocet MM-40 and C-802 more appropriate in performance for Harpoon replacement. TNI-AL did not happy with C-802 performance, but seems quite happy with Exocet MM-40. Well they choose to put it on Dipenogoro/Sigma Corvettes. Why they don't choose it for Van Speijk, I can only 'speculate' that they want something with more range than Exocet MM-40.
no, currently more Van Speijk class ship equipped with C-802, TNI AL tested C-802 3 times and ended with satisfactory result if compared with it's price. 1 exocet cost will get you 3 C-802. That's why TNI AL use Exocet for SIGMA due to it's proven quality and C-802 on the rest of the ship

i have a better approaches toward missile evaluation programme, IMO you can't judge a missile performance just by testing it once. Yakhont use dual channel GPS and GLONASS, due to GLONASS lack of resolution in southern hemisphere, in Indonesia, Yakhont had to rely on GPS guidancec

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However since no official info on what OTHT asset that TNI-AL use for mid range guidance, I still can't comment much on the OTHT. There's an interview from Naval Chief that indicated the Mid range guidance in Yakhont test conducted by Type 209 subs. Well, If looking on some equipment being put on refurbished Type 209 in South Korea, it's seems that TNI-AL Type 209 already have digital data transfer capabilities. If this's true then TNI-AL and the Russian contractors managed to match the Yakhont data receivers with Western style data transmitting that TNI-AL subs or Helicopter have.

TNI-AL NBell-412 seems in my opinion is the only helicopter in TNI-AL inventory that have capabilities to be uses as OTHT. However the amount of TNI-AL's Bell 412 are not enough to equipped all Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk Frigates. There's talk about TNI-AL looking for Kaman Seasprite in order to replaced old Wasp in Van Speijk. I believe if this's true Seasprite can be uses as OTHT.

Yes officially so far TNI-AL only equipped 1 of Van Speijk frigates with Yakhont. From local forum I found another Frigate (Ahmad Yani if not mistaken) being uses for C-802 trial. However if what the Deputy Naval Chief says is true, then the C-802 trial is not as successful as Yakhont did. In other word, if Yakhont being chosen then the rest 5 Frigates will be equipped in near future.
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That's interesting, I've never heard of subs being used to provide mid course guidance updates for a ship launched missile. I assume the sub would have to be surfaced for the data link to work and target data would be from the subs sonar [assuming that's even technically possible]. More practical to just fit existing aircraft with a data link. Are the Exocet equipped Pumas operated by the TNI-AU or the TNI-AL - if operated by the TNI-AU, these could be fitted with a data link. I wonder if any company has given any thought to fitting a UAV with data links for OTHT?

Don't get me wrong, I think supersonic missiles are the way to go as they present the targets with a lot of problems in dealing with them. Personally, if the choice was in having 8 Exocets/Harpoons/Otomats or just 4 Yakhonts/Shupwrecks, I would go for quantity.


no, currently TNI AL has no OTHT asset, in the past we buy 3 Ocean Master radar and wants to equip it in our NBO-105, but the performance of the helo degraded significantly so we cancelled the programme. FYI currently only NBO-105 that fits all of our combatant helo deck, NBell-412 it too long for our SIGMA helipad, our OTHT asset in the future is CN-235 ASW which have ASW and ASuw capability thus equipped with LINK-Y Mk2 datalink that could made the aircraft communicate efficiently with our SIGMA class that already equipped with LINK-Y Mk2. This will increase Exocet effectiveness greatly and make sure it can hit target on it's maximum range
and also on our planned super seasprite helo

i think i had to clarify, on our armada jaya exercise, the sub give target coordinate to KRI OWA (yakhont launch platform) and the ship input numeric variables (target coordinates/Target bearing from launch ship). The U-209 also act as target surveyor for BDA (Battle damage assesment)

we're looking forward for a NCW integrated fleet. I except we could have some test with Exocet+OTHT as soon as 2014

cheers
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Old March 23rd, 2012   #381
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These would make a welcome addition to the TNI-AL but would also mean that the TNI-AL would have to support another missile, CMS, radar, engines, ESM, etc. They are also not fitted with a hangar and at a defence show a few years ago, I was told by someone at the BAE Systems stand that they are fitted with an active jammer. If I'm not mistaken no ship in the TNI-AL has an active jammer.
err, what do you mean by active jammer? our SIGMA uses Racal Scorpion active jammer

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I could not answered that. The 4 Sigma supposedly equipped with 'Nato' standard electronics. However the overall detail of the electronics and sensors seems still being kept hidden. Afterall this 'active' jammer on Nahkoda RAgam if I'm not mistaken also not included on the official list.
SIGMA are equipped by european system, but not with NATO datalink system, LINK-Y Mk2 is a datalink system made spesifically for non NATO countries

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I don't have a detailed list of what the TNI-ALs Sigmas are fitted with but the engines, CMS, radar, fire director, etc, on the Sigmas and Nakhoda Radams are different. Being British built, the Nakhoda Ragams have a lot of ''Made In Britain'' stuff. I suspect that the Nakhoda Ragams, like the Lekiu class, has Link Y.
yes, it has LINK-Y, because fleet integration is one of our current main concern, we need to inspect the ship, sea trial, and test the overall system to determine what needs to be changed or added to made the ship can communicate with others via datalink

for the system, even it uses NAUTIS Combat management system and BAe Insyte radar, it also has Thales SCOUT for LPI surface search (TNI AL has used Scout on some of our ship) and Thales Underwater System Sonar. So it's shared some commonality with our current fleet

cheers
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Old March 25th, 2012   #382
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no, currently TNI AL has no OTHT asset, in the past we buy 3 Ocean Master radar and wants to equip it in our NBO-105, but the performance of the helo degraded significantly so we cancelled the programme.
If they haven't already, I see no reason why the 737s can't be fitted with a data link to perform OTHT.

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i think i had to clarify, on our armada jaya exercise, the sub give target coordinate to KRI OWA (yakhont launch platform) and the ship input numeric variables (target coordinates/Target bearing from launch ship). The U-209 also act as target surveyor for BDA (Battle damage assesment)
Interesting information. Like I said earlier to Ananda, I'm not sure if subs have been used for this purpose before.

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err, what do you mean by active jammer? our SIGMA uses Racal Scorpion active jammer
There you go. So I was mistaken after all .

A few questions if you don't mind.

Do you know if they are any plans to upgrade the Fatahillah class?

Apart from receiving new RENK gearbox's what other improvements have been done to the Parchim class?

What is your personal opinion about the Yakhonts from an operational perspective? Do you think it was worth the effort to integrate just 4 missiles or should the Ahmad Yani class have instead received 8 medium range missiles?
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Old March 25th, 2012   #383
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If they haven't already, I see no reason why the 737s can't be fitted with a data link to perform OTHT.
USA stuff and also SLAMMR is not a modular radar&system you can easily put LINK-Y Mk2 into it, it is easier to put a satellite uplink to our 737s than to put a terrestrial datalink

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A few questions if you don't mind.

Do you know if they are any plans to upgrade the Fatahillah class?

Apart from receiving new RENK gearbox's what other improvements have been done to the Parchim class?

What is your personal opinion about the Yakhonts from an operational perspective? Do you think it was worth the effort to integrate just 4 missiles or should the Ahmad Yani class have instead received 8 medium range missiles?
Parchim? we made some modification to make that ship more suitable for open sea operation and to increase it's range and endurance. Because east germany sea is completely different with our sea

Fatahillah class is reaching it's midlife years, off course there is a planned MLM (midlife modernization)

Yakhont in Ahmad Yani class will be used as a deterrence weapon, Yakhont's range and radar capability will be suit for anti access weapon. Especially when enemy fleet pass a choke point where the area of target will be covered by yakhont's radar during terminal phase, yakhont will choose the biggest target (in invading force it will be CV, LHD, LHA, LPD, or destroyer)

so we can use BOL (bearing only launch) or GPS coordinate and let the Yakhont's radar choose it's own prey

cheers
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Old March 25th, 2012   #384
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i have a better approaches toward missile evaluation programme, IMO you can't judge a missile performance just by testing it once. Yakhont use dual channel GPS and GLONASS, due to GLONASS lack of resolution in southern hemisphere, in Indonesia, Yakhont had to rely on GPS guidancec

no, currently TNI AL has no OTHT asset, in the past we buy 3 Ocean Master radar and wants to equip it in our NBO-105, but the performance of the helo degraded significantly so we cancelled the programme. FYI currently only NBO-105 that fits all of our combatant helo deck, NBell-412 it too long for our SIGMA helipad, our OTHT asset in the future is CN-235 ASW which have ASW and ASuw capability thus equipped with LINK-Y Mk2 datalink that could made the aircraft communicate efficiently with our SIGMA class that already equipped with LINK-Y Mk2. This will increase Exocet effectiveness greatly and make sure it can hit target on it's maximum range
and also on our planned super seasprite helo

i think i had to clarify, on our armada jaya exercise, the sub give target coordinate to KRI OWA (yakhont launch platform) and the ship input numeric variables (target coordinates/Target bearing from launch ship). The U-209 also act as target surveyor for BDA (Battle damage assesment)

we're looking forward for a NCW integrated fleet. I except we could have some test with Exocet+OTHT as soon as 2014
I tend to believe that if those Super Seasprite being procured, those will be the OTHT assets especially from the Van Speijk's/A.Yani frigates. Kaman Seasprites or Super Lynx probably the only two kind of modern Anti Sub/Anti Surface Helo that still can fit properly with Van Speijk's Helicopter facility. Unless they want to equiped Bell 412 to that kind of job (which the Italian done).

Thanks for the clarification with the Yakhonts test. It's more sense for those Sub talking with the mother Frigates rather than data-linkage with Yakhont. You seems to know more on the TNI-AL missiles tests, it's true then that C-802 did not perform well with TNI-AL test ? SIPRI latest data show Indonesia put contact for 50 Yakhont, and 200 C-705 and 40 Exocet MM-40 but no more C-802 if I'm not mistaken. Show in my oppinion that C-802 performance did not meet TNI-AL expectations.
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Old March 26th, 2012   #385
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I tend to believe that if those Super Seasprite being procured, those will be the OTHT assets especially from the Van Speijk's/A.Yani frigates. Kaman Seasprites or Super Lynx probably the only two kind of modern Anti Sub/Anti Surface Helo that still can fit properly with Van Speijk's Helicopter facility. Unless they want to equiped Bell 412 to that kind of job (which the Italian done).
Italy use Bell212 to guide it's OTOMAT via TG-2 datalink, it has a lot of cons, especially regarding helo slow speed, helo poor radar performance, and the missile must fly below the helo.

Nbell as i stated before, is too long in dimension for SIGMA class and Nala. So option downed to Sea Sprite and Panther, me personally choose panther but if seasprite comes with integration/compatible datalink system and a cheap price, i 'll put my choice on it

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Thanks for the clarification with the Yakhonts test. It's more sense for those Sub talking with the mother Frigates rather than data-linkage with Yakhont. You seems to know more on the TNI-AL missiles tests, it's true then that C-802 did not perform well with TNI-AL test ? SIPRI latest data show Indonesia put contact for 50 Yakhont, and 200 C-705 and 40 Exocet MM-40 but no more C-802 if I'm not mistaken. Show in my oppinion that C-802 performance did not meet TNI-AL expectations.
SIPRI sometimes put more number, less number, unexecuted contract (contract without Letter of credit) , and sometimes not putting some valid contract on their data. C-802 is one sample of less number, we currently installed it on FPB NAV-V and some of Van Speijk class. C-802 latest test is hit and explode
looks like the yakhont will be utilized as anti access weapon while exocet and C-802 will be used as front line SSM
and for smaller ship we'll use C-705 that has quite similar range with exocet and 802 thanks to additional booster but with smaller warhead. We have plan to manufacture C-705 locally

IMO, know how to built C-705 is more advantageous than C-802, despite of it smaller warhead, C-705 already used a digital system (quite up to date), more COTS component and could be developed into a longer range and bigger missile

cheers
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Old March 27th, 2012   #386
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Yakhont in Ahmad Yani class will be used as a deterrence weapon, Yakhont's range and radar capability will be suit for anti access weapon. Especially when enemy fleet pass a choke point where the area of target will be covered by yakhont's radar during terminal phase, yakhont will choose the biggest target (in invading force it will be CV, LHD, LHA, LPD, or destroyer)

so we can use BOL (bearing only launch) or GPS coordinate and let the Yakhont's radar choose it's own prey cheers
Yes, but I was interested in your opinion as to whether theTNI-AL would have been better off fitting 8 medium range missiles on the Ahmad Yani, rather than just 4 Yakhonts .In theory at least, a C-802 or a Harpoon will be able to perform the tasks you mentioned, even given the shorter range of both missiles. To me at least, and I'm no expert, using the long range Yakhont in places such as the confined Melaka Straits, might present its share of problems. Politics aside, apart from its bigger warhead and being supersonic, does Yakhont provide other advantages over missiles that the TNI-AL already operates?

Last edited by STURM; March 27th, 2012 at 05:56 AM.
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Old March 27th, 2012   #387
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Nbell as i stated before, is too long in dimension for SIGMA class and Nala. So option downed to Sea Sprite and Panther, me personally choose panther but if seasprite comes with integration/compatible datalink system and a cheap price, i 'll put my choice on it
I don't think TNI-AL will use Sigma or Nala as based for any Anti Surface/ASW Helicopter assets. Even when they still have Wasp, those helicopter never been used by other ships except Van Speijk. Those are the job for proper size Frigates, which at this moment means Van Speijk. In such I put Bell 412 as alternatives to Seasprite or Lynx since those are the ASW/Anti Surface Helicopter that can 'properly' operated from Van Speijk. Other in the market I believe is too large for Van Speijks.

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IMO, know how to built C-705 is more advantageous than C-802, despite of it smaller warhead, C-705 already used a digital system (quite up to date), more COTS component and could be developed into a longer range and bigger missile
I agree on C-705, but I still have doubt with C-802. I know they also trial C-802 on Van Speijk besides on FPB-57. Some brass in TNI-AL already mentioned to media, that Yakhont will be for Van Speijk, and C-705 for future Missiles FAC (KCR-40/KCR-60). This signal different opinion with TNI-AL on C-802. Personally I believe, if TNI-AL already chooses Yakhont, then it has no need for C-802 in Van Speijk. While all Missiles FAC including present one can use C-705 as replacement for Exocet MM-38. Exocet MM-40 sill be used by Sigma or PKR-105 (if the program still go on ) since Yakhont is too large for them.
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Old April 5th, 2012   #388
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Found this on You Tube. The first Indonesian build maritime radar operating from Van Speijk Frigate and Parchim Corvete :
Indonesian-Made Naval LPI Radar: INDERA MX-2AHD (4).mp4 - YouTube The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (1).wmv - YouTube The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (PPI).mov - YouTube

The radar called Indera MX-2AHC (in Parchim) and MX-2AHD (in Van Speijk). This's a maritime surface radar. Build by company called Radar and Communication System (RCS) - Indonesia. Is a local company located (if not mistaken) in Bandung.
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Old April 9th, 2012   #389
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Found this on You Tube. The first Indonesian build maritime radar operating from Van Speijk Frigate and Parchim Corvete :
Indonesian-Made Naval LPI Radar: INDERA MX-2AHD (4).mp4 - YouTube
The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (1).wmv - YouTube
The First Indonesian-Made Radar: INDERA MX-2AHC (PPI).mov - YouTube


The radar called Indera MX-2AHC (in Parchim) and MX-2AHD (in Van Speijk). This's a maritime surface radar. Build by company called Radar and Communication System (RCS) - Indonesia. Is a local company located (if not mistaken) in Bandung.
Thanks for posting!
A good development.
It looks like 354 has become a sort of experimental frigate...
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Old April 18th, 2012   #390
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New Trimarans for Indonesian Navy

I saw this recently, I assume it is legitimate

Photo: North Sea X3K trimaran - Indonesian Hot Rod

Cant say that I actually like the design, I think the outriggers are too short, might benefit if they were extended forward another 20ft

I guess they will give it a go and see if it works or not, I guess they should be fast for dealing with Pirates and such
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