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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

This is a discussion on Indonesia: 'green water navy' within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Ananda That's what Daewoo offered to PAL, not only the ToT on how to build Subs, but ...


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Old June 18th, 2011   #301
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That's what Daewoo offered to PAL, not only the ToT on how to build Subs, but also helping PAL to adjust their facilities for Subs manufacturing. Whille the Russsian promissed for ToT but demand another seperate deal for helping PAL adjust their manufacturing infrastructures.
Russia offer is similar with South Korea ...but Indonesia should buy min. 6 units from them ... 2 from export credit + 4 Cash (SK: only min. 4 units and all through export credit). Without ToT .. the price of Kilo is much cheaper than CBG.

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Honestly, why if something not progressing on the deal with China or Russia now in Indonesia being blamed on US Influenced

What the US got to do with this deal ??
You can say like that if our president is not SBY ... Do you think that the grant of 24 units of F16 is without certain pre-conditions? .....

Last edited by firdausj; June 19th, 2011 at 05:39 AM. Reason: edit error ...
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Old June 18th, 2011   #302
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Not 100% accurate ... Russia has offered ToT of KIlo but Indonesia has to purchase at least 6 units ....
The main question I'm very curious about is whether the TNI-AL was ever really keen on the Kilo or was it a political decision?

As I mentioned before, the transfers ot technology and local building aside, there are advantages and disadvantages to operating the Kilo.
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Old June 19th, 2011   #303
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The main question I'm very curious about is whether the TNI-AL was ever really keen on the Kilo or was it a political decision?

As I mentioned before, the transfers ot technology and local building aside, there are advantages and disadvantages to operating the Kilo.
Let me put this way. The last time TNI-AL use Sovyet/Russian subs was in the 70's (the old Whiskey), and since the 80's they're using Type 209. In the 90's they're already train and in the process of taking over 5 ex Bundesmarine Type 206 (the deal breakdown due to economic crisis and Soeharto downfalls). Their Torps is basically License build German SUT.

Is this the kind of Navy that more willing to take Russian tech after so long familiar with German tech ? What they want is Type 214. However since ROK proposed Changbogo (license build Type 209) and they seems more inclined to help PAL build locally, the Navy try to play Kilo's card since they feel they need more capable subs than Type 209, and Kilo's enter that catagory.

Now the German (HDW) put Type 214 and lattest Type 209 on the table, thus resulted the Navy seems not much more anthusiast playing the Kilo's card. Afterall what they want from Russia is not Kilo's but Amur/Lada. However with Amur/Lada still on trial with Russian Navy, that's put German offer and ROK offer more attractive.

It take much more money to integrate Kilo's to TNI-AL Subs inventory.
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Old June 20th, 2011   #304
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Recently got to visit and tour one of the Makasar class. Was very impressed with the friendliness of the Indonesian crew as well as the condition of the ship.
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Old June 20th, 2011   #305
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It take much more money to integrate Kilo's to TNI-AL Subs inventory.
Which brings to mind the question as to why the TNI-AU went through the trouble to integrate Yakhont, when it could have taken a less painful route, with the Harpoon.

During the 1980's did Indonesia source any arms from the Soviet Union?
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Old June 20th, 2011   #306
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Which brings to mind the question as to why the TNI-AU went through the trouble to integrate Yakhont, when it could have taken a less painful route, with the Harpoon.

During the 1980's did Indonesia source any arms from the Soviet Union?
Integrating missiles is less complex then integrating subs. TNI will continue balance their armed originations. Getting US armed still politically sensitive, no matter how much thing improve with Obama. Having russian or chinese armed whether imported or try to build under license will continue.

Still they will found better way to get more effective to integrate different sources of armed. My suspect if Russian can provide better deal and put Amur rather than Kilo's they still in contention.

PS: in the 80's Soeharto's considered one of the golden non allies partner. Why should he source non US/Western weapons ?

Last edited by Ananda; June 21st, 2011 at 06:54 AM.
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Old July 3rd, 2011   #307
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Integrating missiles is less complex then integrating subs.
Ananda,

With aircraft you need to ensure the radios, IFF and TACAN are compatible. But what integration will be needed with subs if the Kilo enters TNI-AL service and if no non-Russian gear is to be instaled, apart from maybe Western made radios for comms whilst the sub is surfaced?
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Old July 4th, 2011   #308
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Going through this thread, and many Indonesian military modernisation news on other sites I always see this 200 ship navy thread.

The problem is, when I think 200 ships I think US navy style (not the whole over 50 destroyers) with 30+ surface combatants and over a dozen subs. Someone want to clear this up for me? Will most of these be patrol craft? How big is the actual Indonesian blue water force going to be?
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Old July 4th, 2011   #309
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Which brings to mind the question as to why the TNI-AU went through the trouble to integrate Yakhont, when it could have taken a less painful route, with the Harpoon.

During the 1980's did Indonesia source any arms from the Soviet Union?
It's easier to integrate anti-ship missile rather than say, an anti-aircraft missile. for one, Anti-ship are fully autonomous once launch and require no off-board support like a target illuminator.
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Old July 7th, 2011   #310
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It's easier to integrate anti-ship missile rather than say, an anti-aircraft missile. for one, Anti-ship are fully autonomous once launch and require no off-board support like a target illuminator.
Why would it be easier? Whether its an ASM or a SAM there is still a need to ensure the missile's guidance system is integrated or 'speaking the same lingo' as the ships sensors. Integration can be not only technically challenging but very expensive as well, even with equipment sourced from the same country.
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Old July 8th, 2011   #311
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Ananda,

With aircraft you need to ensure the radios, IFF and TACAN are compatible. But what integration will be needed with subs if the Kilo enters TNI-AL service and if no non-Russian gear is to be instaled, apart from maybe Western made radios for comms whilst the sub is surfaced?
That's why I said before integrating subs will be more complex than integrating missiles. I believe the package of Yakhont for example include some system integrations on existing hardware to communicate with Russian geared. How and what to integrate, the Navy and PAL won't talked.

But I believe the work to integrated Russian MIssiles with Western standard hardware still less complex than integrating Subs system with Western system environment that TNI-AL mostly had.
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Old July 8th, 2011   #312
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I understand where you're getting at Ananda but I still mantain that integrating non-Russian stuff on a vessel that is fitted out with Westerm made sensors. or vice versa, is more costly and time intensive than introducing into service Russians subs.

Assuming Indonesia had bought Kilos and had decided not to integrate any non-Russian on it, apart maybe for radios for surface comms with surface vessels or with shore bases, I can't imagine what integration will be needed. The problems would have started if say the TNI-AL decided to integrated non-Russian torps, a CMS, etc. A key advantage in not buying the Kilo is that part of the existing shore infrastructure already in place for the Chakra and Nanggala, can be used to support new Type 209s or 214s.

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believe the package of Yakhont for example include some system integrations on existing hardware to communicate with Russian geared. How and what to integrate, the Navy and PAL won't talked.
The missile's guidance system would have to be made compatible with the ships sensors and fire control directors. This involves a lot of sotfware modifications and rewriting of codes. Then it would also have to be made compatible with the ships CMS or FCS. The relatively easy part is modifications to the ships structure to accept the missile canisters.
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Old July 9th, 2011   #313
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The missile's guidance system would have to be made compatible with the ships sensors and fire control directors. This involves a lot of sotfware modifications and rewriting of codes. Then it would also have to be made compatible with the ships CMS or FCS. The relatively easy part is modifications to the ships structure to accept the missile canisters.
Not exactly and it depends on what capability is required.

Within nominal range and without datalink capability, the modifications are much lesser. In the nutshell, the missile just need a X,Y,Z coordinates to engage the target. Iranian C704 captured by the Israelis on route the Hezbollah included and used a set of commercial KH Manta ARPA radar and the C802 strike on the Hanit was made using a similar coast radar facility.

The additional work would come if there is a need to integrate with off board sensors for mid-course guidance.

What Ananda is trying to say is their institutions, logistics and training would need to be changed. It is not impossible but the existing Type 209s are not going to retire because new subs are being bought. It will not be cost-effective to setup a parallel logistics and training facilities. It is no small thing; a sub is a system of systems, from the diesels to the electronics. Going German again means that is not going to be wasted.
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Old July 9th, 2011   #314
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The additional work would come if there is a need to integrate with off board sensors for mid-course guidance.
Apart from maybe the poltical angle, I would assume that the whole idea of integrating Yakhont in the first place and not going through the much easier path of buying more Harpoons or another Western ASM, would be to utilise its long range. And to do that, mid-course guidance, from an MPA or a helicopter, would be needed.
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Old July 18th, 2011   #315
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What Ananda is trying to say is their institutions, logistics and training would need to be changed. It is not impossible but the existing Type 209s are not going to retire because new subs are being bought. It will not be cost-effective to setup a parallel logistics and training facilities. It is no small thing; a sub is a system of systems, from the diesels to the electronics. Going German again means that is not going to be wasted.
Thanks for that clarification. It's exactly what I mean. The infrastructures (hard and soft) for integrating Russian subs with TNI-AL infrastructures will be much harder than just integrating one missiles system like Yakhont.

This something that believed being missed by many supporters of Russian subs in here ( not to mentioned some of them simply just anti-western). The Russian offered just for Subs it self, however the costs for other integrations on existing infrastructures for subs maintenance will be just another costs that haven't been included in the offer.

Using another German subs will also mean that existing heavy Torp (SUT that already been manufactured under license) can be integrated directly. Like you say Subs is a System of Systems. I my self already suspected from beginning of this Indonesian Subs tender that the German (or the ROK in which proposed also German subs) will gain lead, simply on the easiness for integrations, plus their larger willingness to support local manufacturing facilities.
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