Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[funtz]

Originally Posted by roberto

There is nothing joint development about PAK-FA/MTA/Brahmos. Joint development means that u bring some thing which other side cannot make it. Ruaf PAK-FA/Yakhont is 100% Russian made. It is just for public consumption in India so funds can be allocated so they called it joint.

If India can afford Jaquar/Mirage 2000 in early 80s where economic size was way small than it can surely afford EF/Rafale/JSF for 21st century.

I think joint development is just making something, the reasons can be several (capability, economy, laws, tech transfer etc.)

Brahmos has indian parts in it, developed in India as highligted by gf0012-aust.

FGFA according to news reports is already a bit different from PAK-FA (a more customised version, which could include indian parts as the project matures), MTA, BRAHMOS-II (will) have more co development.

60 Mirage-2000, and the jaguar (i dont think it was expensive in 80s money) a excellent bomb truck that has seen a lot of indigenous production.

JSF might be available post 2020, current production Euro & US planes along with Ru planes are participating in a tender and we will know which way that flows as 2012 approaches.

[mig3535]

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Warning issued.

[roberto]

Originally Posted by gf0012-aust

No it's not that simple - and it is a joint development..

The Russians are signatorys to the MTCR - as such they could not sell India any missile that had a range over 300km's. Hence the Yakhont was sold as a delimited model sub 300km to avoid the MTCR caveats.

It was sold as a co-operative weapons system that was delimted on range and minus the Glonass guidance system due to Russian concerns about India having access (at that time)

Because the missile is now "co-operative" and regarded as a indigenous due to being developed at a guidance level etc for Indian conditions, the it means that Russia and India are technically not breaching MTCR, it also means that as a locally iterated product, India could technically sell it to non MTCR buyers (although I doubt they would as they are consious of being good international citizens and ended up with this partnership due to international obligations and caveats anyway). It also means that they now have the base technology to go out and extend the range beyond the original MTCR limitations.

The irony of this all is that India is now seeking to include Glonass guidance (as its not a true 7 seas bluewater capability without constellation capability) and they could end up basically having paid for a Yakhont in its fundamental form. Good business for the russians, as they ended up with a customer who paid for the continued development of the Yakhont when they needed the money - and now they have a partner willing to be part of Glonass (when the existing constellation is woefully inadequate (in a blue water 7 seas theatre management context).

The russians have had a win win - the indians have had a win in the sense that they got to improve their own missile technology with an already semi developed missile based on the P800 family.

I mean Russia scientific and miliary developments is not dependend on join products with China/India/Iran/France. They usually enter into those projects for cost reasons and expand markets. For projects like Borie/Bulva/Topol-M/PAK-FA/Su-35(Su-27SM2)/Su-34. They did it by themselves because they had no intention of export in beginning.
With Brahmos they have given enough technology that i can easily be modified for longer ranges. I bet airlanhced version will already exceed 300KM. there u goes MTCR.

Mazurkevich, who heads international cooperation department of the Russian defence ministry, said that one of the reasons for not Russia not keen to export this weapon, "highly lethal for potential enemies", is that its range could be easily extended from the current 300 km, allowed under Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).
"We are not worried about it as we have nuclear weapons, but this (unauthorised extension of range) may pose threat not only to India but also to our other friends and allies," Mazurkevich underscored. He said Brahmos is initially an anti-ship cruise missile and Russia is closely cooperating with India in the development of its other variants including land and air based.

"Coupled with Sukhoi Su-30MKI it makes a highly potent weapon system," General Mazurkevich said.

However, the trial of this system requires heavy financing and Russia would help India in this, he said.

"Two-three trials of Brahmos air force version would equal the cost of a SU-30MKI fighter, but we have expertise, how to do this at much lesser cost," Mazurkevich said adding that "unveiling and enhancing" the hidden potential of new weapon systems like Brahmos cruise missiles, Su-30MKI fighters and T-90S main battle tanks would be one of the thrust areas Indo-Russian military-to-military cooperation

During a recent defence expo in Indonesia, BrahMos Aerospace displayed a poster comparing the characteristics of its missile with those of other missiles available in the international market, the report said.

The BrahMos, named after the Brahmaputra and Moskva rivers, is described by India and Russia as an example of the cutting edge defence hardware that can be created through cooperation. The missile has been inducted into the Indian Navy.

The BrahMos poster was virtually an "anti-ad" of the Russian anti-ship missiles, said the report, which also virtually accused "Indian specialists" of lying as characteristics quoted by them are supposed to be Russia's "top secrets" to which they could never have any access

[gf0012-aust]

Originally Posted by roberto

I mean Russia scientific and miliary developments is not dependend on join products with China/India/Iran/France. They usually enter into those projects for cost reasons and expand markets. For projects like Borie/Bulva/Topol-M/PAK-FA/Su-35(Su-27SM2)/Su-34. They did it by themselves because they had no intention of export in beginning.
With Brahmos they have given enough technology that i can easily be modified for longer ranges. I bet airlanhced version will already exceed 300KM. there u goes MTCR.

Can you at least make the effort to read what people have posted before responding with reams of copy and paste to support a non existent argument?

The fact that India has a locally developed iteration to a partnered product means that she can develop whatever enhancements she wants into that system as it's now indigenous to her requirements.

The issue of MTCR breaches is with respect to Russia - thats the fundamental reason for Russians restrictions on the initial Brahmos development. India is not an MTCR signatory and is able to do whatever she elects to do from this point on.

Can you stop posting irrelevant commentary to fill up a post with noise. It's getting very very tiresome.

This is the third time we've had to visit a post because of a report by Members for trolling. Either you stay within the rules or you're going to run out of options. I have warned you before - so this is your second. A third may see you on a short holiday.

[gf0012-aust]

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