This is a discussion on Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; A recent article in a leading daily in india suggest that the "hush-hush" project in chugging along smoothly, but that's ...
A recent article in a leading daily in india suggest that the "hush-hush" project in chugging along smoothly, but that's about it, no further details were given
A friend in the circles says that the security around the shipyard is very very tight, no body can go past.
Industrial giant L&T are also a contractor in the project
that's all i know
India has been working since 1985 to develop an indigenously constructed nuclear-powered submarine, one that is based on the Soviet Charlie II-class design, detailed drawings of which are said to have been obtained from the Soviet Union in 1989. This project illustrates India's industrial capabilities and weaknesses. The secretive Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to provide nuclear propulsion for Indian submarines has been one of the more ill-managed projects of India. Although India has the capability of building the hull and developing or acquiring the necessary sensors, its industry has been stymied by several system integration and fabrication problems in trying to downsize a 190 MW pressurized water reactor (PWR) to fit into the space available within the submarine's hull. The Proto-type Testing Centre (PTC) at the Indira Gandhi Centre For Atomic Research. Kalpakkam, will be used to test the submarine's turbines and propellers. A similar facility is operational at Vishakapatnam to test the main turbines and gear box.
According to some accounts India plans to have as many as five nuclear submarines capable of carrying missiles with nuclear warheads. The Indian nuclear powered attack submarine design is said to have a 4,000-ton displacement and a single-shaft nuclear power plant of Indian origin. Once the vessel is completed, it may be equipped with Danush/Sagarika cruise missiles and an advanced sonar system. However, according to some analysts the most probable missile for the Indian submarine would be the Yahont anti-ship cruise missile designed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya.
With the participation he accomplishes of involved Russian scientists and technician in the diverse phases of the program, has possibility of that the first Indian submarine with nuclear propulsion, with 9,400 tons of displacement when submerged and 124 meters of length, can be operational in 2009, will have been launched in 2006-2007.
This way would have the possibility of multiple performance: it could use missiles of cruise of average reach (1,000 km), ballistic missiles of short reach (300 km), torpedoes and mines, besides participating of operations special. If it will have success in this taken over on a contract basis, will be valid to assume that the Indian Fleet will count on four of these submarines until the year of 2020.
Vessel Type Submarine
Country India
Program Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV)
Total Number 1
Unit Cost (US$) 1B (Est.)
Builder Vishakapatnam Naval Dockyard (VND) with assistance from Mazagon Dock Ltd. (MDL).
Displ. Tons 5,500 – 6,500 (Est.)
Length 100m (328ft) (Est.)
Beam 15m (49.2ft) (Est.)
Draft 9m (29.5ft) (Est.)
Machinery Nuclear: one pressurized water reactor (PWR) using 20% enriched uranium fuel (160-190MW); one turbine (47,000hp/70MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller. (Est.)
Speed (Knots) 12-15 (surfaced) 30-34 (submerged). (Est.)
Range Unlimited.
Diving Depth 300 m (984.2ft). (Est.)
Complement Undetermined.
Weapons Torpedoes: Six 21 inch (533mm) torpedo tubes. Mines. A total capacity (mines, torpedoes, and missiles) of 30 weapons. (Est.)
Missiles Submarine launched cruise missiles (SLCM) using either a vertical launch system or a torpedo tube launch, surface-to-surface missiles (SSMs), and a submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM). (Est.)
The Indian Navy leased a Russian 670 Skat (NATO: Charlie I) Class nuclear powered submarine for three years - from January 1988 to January 1991. In the Indian Navy, the vessel was referred to as the INS Chakra and was manned by a Russian crew who also had the task of training Indian submariners on how to operate the nuclear powered vessel. In addition to becoming a training ground, INS Chakra also acted as a design laboratory for developing and testing indigenous nuclear submarine technologies. The lease was not extended after January 1991 and the submarine was returned back to Vladivostock, Russia where it was decommissioned from Russian Naval service.
The Russian crew that trained the Indian submariners have now taken key posts, probably in the Indian Naval Design Organisation, to design India's nuclear powered submarine codenamed the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV). This top secret project has facilities in New Delhi, Vizag, Hyderabad and Kalapakkam. A Naval Wing of DRDO runs the organization and since 1985 has had a retired Vice Admiral in charge. In late 2000, the ATV project was given a new lease of life with the appointment of Vice Admiral R.N. Ganesh to take charge. An experienced submariner, he commanded the Charlie I Class {INS Chakra} submarine when she was leased to India.
The hull design is ready and the displacement is estimated to be at 6000 tons. The 190 MW miniature nuclear propulsion system has been tested ashore, possibly at the Kalapakkam atomic research centre. Given the degree of Russian technical assistance, the submarine could resemble the Severodvinsk Class and/or the Akula Class. Reportedly, the submarine will have VLS tubes capable of firing multiple weapons. Fabrication has already commenced at Vizag, but there are no indications as to when the vessel will be laid down or launched. The plan is for a class of five submarines fitted with long-range, nuclear-tipped missiles. A nuclear-capable missile (dubbed 'Sagarika' by the press) is reportedly under development at the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) at Bangalore, in southern India.
Here is an edited version of my thoughts posted on another forum in response to an inquiry on the future of the Indian Navy. Any corrections or other thoughts most welcome:
Making predictions about the Indian Navy even a coupla years into the future is difficult much less ten.
But Ill give it a shot force structure-wise anyways.
SUBMARINES
0-1? SSBN (Not likely but possible)
0-4? SSN (possible but not a sure bet)
16-20 SSK Russian/German/French(without a doubt and maybe more)
CARRIERS
1-3 Vikrant class
1 Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)
DDG
0-6? VLS/Phased-Array radar
3 Project 15A Bangalore Class
3 Project 15 Dehli Class
FFG
3-12 Project 17 Shivalik class
3 Talwar class
FF
3-6 Project 16/16A Godavari/Improved Godavari class (The three early ships have stability issues and could be decommissioned prematurely depending on the pace of current and future shipbuilding programs)
FFL
8 Project 25/25A Khukri class
I see as many as forty Surface Combatants in a combination of the types mentioned above. There are now twenty-eight in-commission.
I discussed the future Amphibious situation in a thread below:
"Selling two LHA 1 class (Plus granting two others as spares hulks) and four LSD 41 class ships to India is intriguing IMHO.
This would give India a ready-made credible amphibious force for very little cost."
plus this:
"(1) INDIA.βTo the Government of India, the AUSTIN class amphibious transport dock ship TRENTON (LPD-14)."
So to reiterate I see a possible fleet of six LHA/LPD/LSD Type ships augmented with approx. six LST type ships.
There logistic forces will have to be enlarged and upgraded for any prospect of continuous, sustained operations on a world-wide basis. Only three now. By comparison the British Royal Navy has thirteen.
Plus approx 30 Patrol ships, Patrol Craft and Guided-Missle Craft.
The 2 nd International Naval & Defence Show (IMDS-2005) that was held in St Petersburg, Russia, from June 29 to July 5 provided a deep insight into several capital procurement programmes, both on-going and planned, of the Indian Navy. These include naval aviation aircraft and principal surface combatants, diesel-electric submarine (SSK) upgrades, as well as anti-ship/land-attack cruise missiles.
INS Vikramaditya
Extensive refit and upgrade work is now underway in Severodvinsk on converting the Krechyet-class (Type 1143.4) 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier (the Admiral Gorshkov) into the INS Vikramaditya, whose acquisition contract worth US$860 million was inked on 20 January 2004. Main industrial activity is led by the Sevmash State Production Association, with the others being Nevskoye Design Bureau, Northern Machine Building Enterprise, and Novaya Era JSC. The vessel, which is being reconfigured to primarily undertake offensive maritime strike and land attack operations, will be handed over to the IN by August 2008, by which time it will host a 14.3-degree bow-mounted ski-ramp, twin aircraft restraining stands, a 20-tonne capacity elevator beside the vessel's island superstructure and an aft lift with 30-tonne lift capacity, and three arresting gears on the aft section of the angled deck to facilitate fixed-short takeoff but arrested recovery (STOBAR) of fixed-wing combat aircraft. The vessel will accommodate 12 MiG-29Ks, four Kamov Ka-31 AEW helicopters, and two Ka-28PL ASW helicopters.
The vessel's combat/platform management and air situation display systems are being jointly developed by the Meridian Research & Production Enterprise, Granit Central Research Institute, Elektropribor, Salyut State Moscow Plant State Unitary Enterprise and Octagon Systems. The electronic warfare suite will be derived from the TK-25E-5 suite that is on board the IN's three Project 1135.6 Talwar-class guided-missile frigates (FFG). For close-in and area air defence, INS Vikramaditya will be armed with twin 3M88 Kashtan CADS-N1 modules (each comprising 32 9M311 laser-guided anti-missile missiles and two six-barrelled 30mm GSh-630K gatling guns plus a fire-control radar and optronic director) , as well as the Shtil-1 system developed by the Dolgoprudnenskoye Naucsno-Proizvodstvennoye Predpriyatie JSC, which is part of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern. The Shtil-1 will comprise one MR-700M active phased-array radar and twin vertical-launch modules mounted fore and aft of the island, with each module comprising twin rotary carousels each containing 12 9M317ME surface-to-air missiles (SAM) developed by the Altair Naval Radio Electronics Scientific Institute JSC. A dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor will provide the SAM with a maximum speed of Mach 4.5. Fire-control and guidance is by a combination of inertial and semi-active radar homing (using four MT-90 Orekh target illuminators). Launch weight of the SAM is 581kg, its range is between 3.5km and 32km, and the missile will contain a 62kg warhead initiated by a dual-mode, active radar proximity fuze. The Shtil-1 has also been chosen for installation on board the IN's three Project 15A Bangalore-class guided-missile destroyers (DDG) now under construction.
Carrier-Based MiG-29K
Senior officials of Russian Aircraft Corp-MiG confirmed during IMDS-2005 that fabrication of the first MiG-29KUB tandem-seat operational conversion trainer prototype (Project 9-47) and the first MiG-29K multi-role combat aircraft prototype (Project 9-41) began last March, with the former due to make its maiden flight on December 25 this year, and the latter in March 2006. Detailed negotiations for this contract had begun in July 1999. Following extensive flight-testing and airworthiness certification, the first production-series MiG-29K/KUBs will be delivered to the IN by June 2007. The IN has to date ordered 12 MiG-29Ks and four MiG-29KUBs plus related support hardware/software and guided-weapons worth $740 million, and has options on ordering a follow-on batch of 26 MiG-29Ks and four MiG-29KUBs before 2015. The IN has already ordered a full-mission simulator from a joint venture company comprising RAC-MiG and Germany's Rheinmetall DeTec, and will shortly order a carrier deck-landing simulator from the same entity.
The MiG-29K/KUBs will each feature a digital three-channel fly-by-wire flight control system and a single-channel analogue back-up control system; twin folding outer-wing panels; larger, double-slotted trailing-edge flaps; rectangular leading-edge vortex controllers (LEVCON) fitted to the wing-root extensions; and increased displacement (30-degree) leading-edge flaps. The leading-edge flaps will deploy automatically while the LEVCONs will be deflected only during landing for increasing the aircraft's lift and stability. Ramenskoye-based RPKB Avionics Design Bureau along with the Moscow-based GosNIIAS Institute is integrating the aircraft's avionics suite via a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus, as well as developing the on-board mission computer and cockpit instrumentation. The MiG-29K will be equipped with Phazotron-NIIR's ZHUK-ME multi-mode X-band, monopulse radar that has a range of 120km, can track 20 airborne targets and engage four of them simultaneously, and has a synthetic aperture mode for real-beam terrain mapping. The nose-mounted 13SM infra-red search-and-track system developed by UOMZ will incorporate a laser rangefinder with a 16.2km range, will feature diamond glass to protect the optronics' lens, and most notably, will be integrated with the TopSight-E helmet-mounted sight/display supplied by THALES of France.
The MiG-29K's all-glass cockpit will have HOTAS controls, and be devoid of any standby electro-mechanical instrumentation. On-board displays will include the RRKB 1KSh-1MT monochromatic, wide-angle heads-up display, plus three MFI-10 6-inch by 8-inch active matrix liquid crystal displays (AMLCD). The MiG-29KUB's rear cockpit will contain four MFI-10s. The GLONASS GPS receiver on board will be integrated with THALES' Totem ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system. Avionics built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd such as TACAN, ILS receiver, VOR/DME receiver, VHF/UHF radios, IFF transponder, radar altimeter; and the Tarang Mk3 radar warning receiver made by state-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd will also be installed. The electronic countermeasures suite will comprise ELTA of Israel's EL/L-8222 jamming pod on the starboard outer underwing pylon, plus twin Russian 16-round, 50mm downward-firing flare dispensers located in the rear fuselage outboard of the engine nacelles.
Powerplant for each of the MiG-29K/KUBs will comprise twin Klimov RD -33-10MK turbofans each rated at 19,842lb (88.25kN) thrust with afterburning. The turbofans will also feature smokeless combustion chambers and full-authority digital engine controls. Both aircraft types will be equipped with retractable in-flight refuelling probes, will have an internal fuel capacity of 5.2 tonnes, and will also be able to carry a 2,150-litre fuel pod on the centreline station and two 1,150-litre tanks under the wings, or a total of four of the latter for buddy-buddy refuelling via a Zvezda PAZ-1MK refuelling pod. As the MiG-29Ks' secondary role will be fleet air defence, they will each be armed with four Vympel-built R-77 beyond visual range and four R-73E within visual range air combat missiles. Primary offensive armament will include twin Zvezda-Strela Research & Production Corp-built 3M-24E1 subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles with on-board GLONASS GPS receiver and a range of 225km (also be to carried by the IN's to-be-upgraded Ka-28PL and Sea King Mk42B shipborne helicopters), or four Kh-31P Krypton 110km-range supersonic anti-radiation missiles, four KAB-500Kr or KAB-5000D laser/TV-guided bombs, or a single Novator-built 3M-14E land-attack cruise missile, all of which can be carried by the aircraft's eight underwing stores stations (the four inner stations can each carry twin pylons).
Principal Combatants
Severnoye Design Bureau officials confirmed that the IN's Project 28 ASW corvette will be derived from the Bureau's Project 20382 design. The Bureau is closely cooperating with the IN's Directorate of Naval Design and Weapons Engineering & Electronics Systems Engineering Establishment (WEESEE), and state-owned Garden Reach Shipbuilding & Engineering to produce detailed engineering drawings using TRIBON CAD/CAM software. The six planned Project 28 vessels will each displace 1,800 tonnes, have a length of 94 metres, beamwidth of 13 metres and a draught of 3.5 metres. Its CODAG propulsion system, comprising twin gas turbines, twin diesel engines and twin diesel generators will drive two-shaft, controllable-pitch propellers. The corvette will have a maximum speed of 27 Knots, range of 4,000nm, endurance of 15 days and a crew compliment of 85. The helicopter deck will be able to house either the dipping sonar-equipped Ka-28PL or Naval Dhruv. The armaments package will comprise one eight-cell vertical launcher for Novator-built 3M-54E Klub-N 220km-range supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles (identical to the ones on board the IN's three Project 1135.6 FFGs), 3R60-UM fire-control system, Garpun Bal-E surface target engagement radar, one OTOBreda 76/62 main gun, twin 12-barrelled RBU-6000 ASW mortar launchers, twin 324mm ILAS triple-tube torpedo launchers for launching Franco-Italian Eurotorp-built MU-90 lightweight torpedoes, and one 16-cell Barak-1 VLS anti-missile defence system with twin EL/M-2221 STGR target illuminators. On-board mission sensors will include the indigenous DRDO/LRDE-developed L-band Central Acquisition Radar, Kelvin Hughes Nucleus-2 6000A navigation radar, an ultra low-frequency active/passive towed array sonar, towed torpedo decoy, and a close-in decoy system with four chaff/flare decoy launchers.
Igor Orlov, Deputy Director-General the Zvezdochka Shipbuilding Plant in Severodvinsk, said that since 1999 the Plant has undertaken the mid-life refits-cum-upgrades (developed by Zvyozdochka Onega Research and Development Technological Bureau) of four of the IN's 10 in-service Type 877EKM Kilo-class SSKs, with the St Petersburg-based Admiralty Shipyard undertaking similar work on two more SSKs. It takes two years and $80 million to undertake such work, which includes installation of the Morphyspribor-built MGK-400EM sonar suite, Avrora JSC-built Palladij-M integrated platform management system, and KALIBRE-PLE weapon system (including Agat Research & Production Enterprise's 3R14N-11356 fire-control system) for enabling the SSK to fire from its 533mm (21-inch) tubes up to four 3M-54E Klub-S or 3M-14E cruise missiles, and TEST-71ME-NK torpedoes. The seventh IN Kilo-class SSK (INS Sindhukirti S-61) will be overhauled and upgraded by the Vizag-based, state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Ltd with the help of Zvezdochka under a recently-inked technology transfer agreement. This SSK, like the INS Sindhughosh , will house the Panchendriya integrated sonar suite and its USHUS bow-mounted sonar jointly developed by the DRDO, WEESEE and the IN's Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory.
Meanwhile, the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (CDBME) has given a detailed proposal to the IN regarding the supply of type-specific full-mission simulators for both the Type 877EKM SSK and the Amur 1650 SSK. These simulators will be located at Vizag.
MP/ASW Aircraft
Officials from Taganrog Aviation Company (TAVIA) confirmed that the IN's eight Tupolev Tu-142ME Mod 4 long-range MP/ASW aircraft have been undergoing service life-extensions (for being in service till 2015) at a rate of one per month since September 2004. The officials disclosed that the IN had issued separate, restricted Requests for Information to Russian and Israeli companies in November 2003 for extending the aircraft's service life and replacing the mission sensor suite at a cost not exceeding $555.5 million. Subsequently, Rosoboronexport State Corp's offer for the Morskoy Zmei (Sea Dragon) suite was rejected in January 2004 due to performance deficiencies and its price tag of $888.9 million. A month later, an IN proposal calling for ELTA to supply the mission sensor suite, with TAVIA only undertaking structural service life-extension work was rejected by Rosoboronexport. Consequently, the IN decided to proceed only with airframe refurbishment work and retain the Tu-142ME Mod 4's existing Korshun (Black Kite) sensor suite developed by Leninets Holding Co.
In contrast, the IN's $205 million service life-extension-cum-upgrade programme for its five IL-38s (including the two attrition replacements that were given free of charge to the IN by Russia following the loss due to a tragic mid-air collision of two IL-38s at Dabolim on October 1, 2002) is proceeding smoothly and is being jointly undertaken by Ilyushin Co's Khodinka facility, Leninets and NIIS St Petersburg. The first IL-38 arrived in Russia on March 29, 2002 and following its refurbishment and upgrade, made its maiden flight on July 3, 2003. Work included replacing the Berkut (Golden Eagle) sensor suite with the Novella , which comprises a 2SDI multi-mode I/J-band search radar, chin-mounted SD-5 optronic sensor suite, two-man workstation equipped with large AMLCDs, 92-channel SD-2 acoustic processor, new-generation sonobuoys, new SD-3 magnetic anomaly detector, 2SD9 ELINT/ESM suite (strut-mounted above the forward fuselage), and tactical data links, all integrated by a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus. The remaining four aircraft, which will remain in service till 2020, are now being upgraded at Dabolim to the IL-38SD standard. These aircraft will also be equipped with underwing pylons for launching R-73E air combat missiles, plus a pylon on each fuselage side to fire both MBDA-built Sea Eagle and 3M24E1 subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles.
Guided-Missiles
While the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile (MRCM) will definitely be installed on board each of the IN's three Project 15A Bangalore-class guided-missile destroyers (DDG) on order in a 16-cell (710mm diameter each) vertical-launch silo, and on the five Project 61A Kashin II-class DDGs (in twin inclined quad launchers and in an eight-cell vertical launch silo that replaces the aft below-deck helicopter hangar), efforts are now underway to tailor the eight-cell vertical launch silo module for the IN's three Project 17 guided-missile frigates, all of which have already been launched and are now being fitted out by Mazagon Docks Ltd. In addition, BrahMos Aerospace, along with CDBME, has modified the Amur 1650 SSK's design that now enables the vessel to accommodate both an 8-cell vertical launcher for the BrahMos, as well as an air-independent propulsion system.
The reason is prob politically influenced. As I know fm GE NY every decision in defence procurement is a mix of military demands, financial limitations and lots of political interests.
BTW: Indian NY operates German 209 + Russian Kilo Class subs. What are the experiences the IN NY made with this two very different types of subs regarding maintainance, readiness, operational capabilities.
IMHO this are relevant factors in a procurement decision.
hdw was backlisted when india evaluated the scorpene now a fresh evaluation with the hdw involved will delay the submarine acquisition process by several years and hence indian navy wants to stick to the scorpene.
Hello, this is my first post here.
IN is pretty pissed off with her russian hardware. Especially since they can compare to westerner stuff.
For the Kilos (and the Fox also), they find them critically underpowered and the level of availability is very very low (less then 20%, often 10%).
They like the russian torpedoes tho.
But they are cheap!
At the end of the day, two Scorpenes or 214s will go more often to sea the 5 Kilos or equivalent. But again they cost more to buy.
hdw was backlisted when india evaluated the scorpene now a fresh evaluation with the hdw involved will delay the submarine acquisition process by several years and hence indian navy wants to stick to the scorpene.
no that is incorrect, HDW were blacklisted due to issues of Kickback claims which have now been shuffled off. Interestingly enough, this was around the same time that DCN and Dassault were "company non gratis" for attempting kickbacks in Taiwan and Giat were blacklisted for perverting trials in Sthn Europe over some French kit.
the HDW decision will not delay the sub purchase, in fact blind freddy can see that already existing HDW infrastructure means that their boats can be fast tracked a lot more quickly and with less disruption.
that is a fallacious argument put forward by DCN and holds no water if analysed in the clear light of day.
at the end of the day, both types need to be assessed on real issues, not trumped up ones - be it from DCN or HDW.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
welcome mate. people will think we're stalking each other.
maybe you can some other clarity to some of these posts.
as for the issue of the Kilos. They've been problematic not only on sea time, but also due to the fact that the export models are not as quiet (significantly) as the local versions. One only has to look at the latest launch and see the prop design on the back to see that it will sound like a "mini bike in a child care centre"
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Yes, thanx Gary.
You know, I am trying to find some "smart" forums here-on, but 99% are not. So, it is were great spirits are meeting, uh?
Ok, self-compliment mode OFF.
You know, the reputation of the Kilos was 90% given by authors like DiMercurio and Robinson. But these ppl didn't even get close to one of these boats. They are not what they seem. We are not living in a novel book here.
This being said, I still believe a good type-XXI with a good crew could do marvels in the South China Sea or the Med...
You know, the reputation of the Kilos was 90% given by authors like DiMercurio and Robinson. But these ppl didn't even get close to one of these boats. They are not what they seem. We are not living in a novel book here.
exactly. but too many people get seduced by people such as robinson, brown etc....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
This being said, I still believe a good type-XXI with a good crew could do marvels in the South China Sea or the Med...
update an oberon or an agosta with a modern FCS and digitals, and have some decent crew training and you could do some serious damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
PS how I can turn off the by-mail-answer stuff?
top right hand corer, click on User Manager and then tick/untick to your hearts content!
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
people will think we're stalking each other. 
