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Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

This is a discussion on Indian Navy Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Rish so have the issues with the engine been solved? i mean has the US agreed to ...


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Old March 19th, 2009   #151
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so have the issues with the engine been solved? i mean has the US agreed to revoke its ban on ge working on the engines? i read somewhere that the navy contracted german engineers to take over the work, but i'm not sure. btw i found a picture of the ship if you'd like to see.
INS have bigger problems, who was the genius who forgot to relise there is no where to install turbines

Sorry, Mumbai has no berth for Kolkata
SUJAN DUTTA

New Delhi, March 16: The navy is all at sea because there is no room in Mumbai for Kolkata.

The INS Kolkata, the navy’s “stealth” guided-missile destroyer named after the Bengal capital, is floating -- unable to sail -- in the waters off the west coast metropolis.

Not a berth is available in the Mazagaon Docks where the INS Kolkata is to be moored so that it can be fitted with four gas turbines to propel it; given a landing deck and a hangar for two helicopters; armed with missiles and torpedoes to make it the most powerful warship of its class.

On schedule, the 6,700-tonne INS Kolkata would by now have been in a “hot start” mode with four Ukrainian M-36 Gas Turbine propulsion systems and ready for sea trials. Classified as Project 15Alpha, the INS Kolkata, the first of three in its class, would have “an updated weapons package and new-look exteriors and improved stealth (making it difficult to detect) and will be delivered beginning with the end of this decade”, says official literature distributed by the directorate of naval design.

But senior naval sources say a conservative delivery schedule envisages that the INS Kolkata will be ready only in 2013, at least three years after its deadline.

The INS Kolkata is not the only warship to be delayed. A parliamentary committee study has found that nearly all the stealth projects of the navy totalling worth more than Rs 19,000 crore are late. More than 30 ships and submarines are being built for the Indian Navy at home and overseas.

The INS Kolkata was “launched” three years ago. Its keel was laid in September 2003 when it was announced that it would be commissioned in 2010.

But now there is not a single shipyard in the country large enough to accommodate the INS Kolkata. Calcutta’s own Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers is too small to accommodate a destroyer. Even then, it has its berths full with orders for offshore and fast patrol boats and frigates.

In Mazagaon Docks (MDL), a senior naval officer told The Telegraph: “They do not have the manpower, design, capability, availability of berths, and the wherewithal to meet monthly targets -- simply put, there does not seem to be the will.”

He said MDL makes a 12 per cent profit in any case and cost overruns add to its revenues and all projects, including the strategic, licensed-from-the-French Scorpene submarine venture, are running behind schedule.

Worse, the INS Shivalik stealth frigate project has been hit by an insidious bombshell after the new Obama administration instructed GE to stop work on a pair of gas turbine engines on the ship under US laws.

The Indian Navy is now trying to work around the laws by drawing in consultants from Italy and Germany by using the defence public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The INS Shivalik is likely to be delayed by at least nine months.

The INS Kolkata is an advancement over the INS Delhi, the destroyer currently in service that also has the INS Mumbai and the INS Mysore in its class. The enhanced weapons package on the INS Kolkata will include twin-tube torpedo-launchers, anti-submarine rocket launchers, and 28 Long Range Surface to Air Missiles (LR-SAMs), possibly the Barak-NG (next generation).

The Barak-NG has run into a controversy itself with the CPM demanding that India should pull out of the joint venture project. A venture between India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) for which the cabinet committee on security has committed at least Rs 10,000 crore, the Barak-NG or Barak-II ship missile defence system is yet to be tried and tested.

The Indian Navy has armed its vessels with the first generation of Barak missiles with which it claims it is satisfied.

In keeping with the new look that the city it is named after aspires for, the INS Kolkata has been given a sophisticated design that compares among the best of warships in its class.

Indian Naval Headquarters asked its designers to come up with a destroyer that can operate with fully integrated multi-function radar systems and, for the first time, 16 silos -- eight on each side -- capable of launching Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles.

Estimated to cost nearly Rs 8,500 crore, the INS Kolkata “will be capable of exerting sea-control in a multi-threat environment”, says Rear Admiral M.K. Budhwar, director-general of naval design.
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Old March 19th, 2009   #152
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That makes no sense. Why would 2 be in docks at once? You can rotate deployments, and carriers only need to spend a fraction of their life in maintenance. The USN has 11 carriers, with one in maintenance at any given time as far as I know.
well i was replying to below poster. one in docks in west and one in docks in east, while 1 in west and 1 in west in operations out at sea. also gives you flexibility of deploying beyond indian ocean borders. but still retain carriers to defend your own waters. i never said 2 carriers at 1 dock. you didnt read properly.
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Old March 20th, 2009   #153
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INS have bigger problems, who was the genius who forgot to relise there is no where to install turbines

Not a berth is available in the Mazagaon Docks where the INS Kolkata is to be moored so that it can be fitted with four gas turbines to propel it; given a landing deck and a hangar for two helicopters; armed with missiles and torpedoes to make it the most powerful warship of its class.

Worse, the INS Shivalik stealth frigate project has been hit by an insidious bombshell after the new Obama administration instructed GE to stop work on a pair of gas turbine engines on the ship under US laws.
The trouble is that all once they have a single delay, it transfers its effects down to all subsequent programs.

INS Shivalik is expected to be ready after monsoons, the GE delay of 3-9 months seems to be another media rumor.
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Well i was replying to below poster. one in docks in west and one in docks in east, while 1 in west and 1 in west in operations out at sea. also gives you flexibility of deploying beyond indian ocean borders. but still retain carriers to defend your own waters. i never said 2 carriers at 1 dock. you didnt read properly.
What docks in east and west are you talking about?
There is just one at Cochin Shipyard (West coast) to handle the Aircraft Carrier Program.
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Old March 20th, 2009   #154
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The trouble is that all once they have a single delay, it transfers its effects down to all subsequent programs.

INS Shivalik is expected to be ready after monsoons, the GE delay of 3-9 months seems to be another media rumor.

What docks in east and west are you talking about?
There is just one at Cochin Shipyard (West coast) to handle the Aircraft Carrier Program.
future buddy i was trying to refer to since india dont have these carriers now obviously its future talk. Since India is gonna expand its naval forces they'll start to construct new naval bases to cover the west middle eastern side and the east-southern side of asia. they need to protect their assets in the near future when energy sources are scarce.
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Old March 21st, 2009   #155
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The trouble is that all once they have a single delay, it transfers its effects down to all subsequent programs.

INS Shivalik is expected to be ready after monsoons, the GE delay of 3-9 months seems to be another media rumor.
exactly. they said that the Shivalik was ready for sea trials but it would be unsuitable to launch it during monsoon bcoz of the rough seas. So they were going to wait untill the end of monsoon.

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What docks in east and west are you talking about?
There is just one at Cochin Shipyard (West coast) to handle the Aircraft Carrier Program.
and there are pics of the Kolkata class destroyer in dock.
so how can it floating offshore. anyway i dont the navy or even MDl would keep its best STEALTH ship floating carelessly......even if the work on it was delayed.
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #156
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so i had a question about the aircraft being equipped on these carriers. why is india opting to have more then one aircraft on its carrier (naval tejas & Mig-29k)? wouldn't that just increase the logistical burden on its' crews and the navy?
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #157
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I would guess that India wishes to use the Mig 29s as interceptors, and the Tejas as strike aircraft.
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #158
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IMHO both the IAF and the IN are not keen on acquiring the LCA/Tejas. Both are frustrated that the LCA has not met their specs and development is constantly delayed. Their eventual acquisition/implementation is probably more political than practical.
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #159
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I would guess that India wishes to use the Mig 29s as interceptors, and the Tejas as strike aircraft.
I think it might end up being the other way around. Even though the MiG 29 is an air superiority fighter, the MiG 29 K that's being shipped with the Gorshkov has 8 pylons instead of 6 and thus increased weapons load. It also has two engines ... whereas the Tejas just has one.

IMO, the Tejas is just a bad equivalent of the MiG 29 - it follows the same design principles (air superiority fighter with multirole capability), but it has less range, less weapon capacity, less speed, less manoeverability and one less engine. As Salty dog says, it's probably more political than practical.

However, it's important to note that the experience gained from operating an indigenous fighter on a carrier is immense; the Tejas might be weak compared to the MiG 29, but it is the product of Indian design, so maybe next time, the fighter produced might turn out to be better than foreign competition .
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #160
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As a carrier based fighter, the effectiveness of the Mig-29K remains to be seen. AFAIK the Soviet/Russian navy only tested the Mig-29 carrier variant and never acquired it for their embarked naval air forces.

It is already a bold venture for the IN to operate the Mig-29K from new untested aircraft carriers and even bolder to incorporate a navalised LCA.

Time and money (lots of it) will tell.
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #161
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so what aircraft do you think would you have been a better choice to invest in (other then the Mig or LCA) considering the geopolitical situation india is currently in?
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #162
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Regarding the GE ban. It is most likely that GE failed to apply for export licensing. I've seen this happen before. It is actually GE's fault and not the US Government.

In fact the licensing is most likely not for the LM 2500 turbines themselves, but for the control panels and systems that run the turbines. These panels and control systems are quite a bit more advanced in technology than the turbines, so an export license is required.

It is probable that the deal may have been handled via the GE subsidiary Nuovo Pignone in Italy, which may be why an export license was not sought, but caught up with GE.

Perhaps someone can all confirm all this.
yeah youre right. the problem was solved this week, but the media hasn't picked up on the story yet.
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #163
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so what aircraft do you think would you have been a better choice to invest in (other then the Mig or LCA) considering the geopolitical situation india is currently in?
The Mig-29K and Su-33 are the only options as India has decided to go the STOBAR route. This puts India in the same club as Russia and China. Two other STOBAR users with limited aircraft carrier experience. Actually, only Russia has operated STOBAR aircraft.

I do no see where geopolitics have anything to do with this.

I find it interesting that India, experienced in V/STOL operations, did not choose to advance their proven system. The V/STOL carrier system has matured in the UK, Italy, and Spain with newer generations of aircraft carriers and the F-35B coming online in the near future. India was part of that group.

A better question would be did India make the right decision to move away from V/STOL to STOBAR?

IMHO India should have moved over to CATOBAR, a very proven system.
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #164
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The Mig-29K and Su-33 are the only options as India has decided to go the STOBAR route. This puts India in the same club as Russia and China. Two other STOBAR users with limited aircraft carrier experience. Actually, only Russia has operated STOBAR aircraft.

I do no see where geopolitics have anything to do with this.

I find it interesting that India, experienced in V/STOL operations, did not choose to advance their proven system. The V/STOL carrier system has matured in the UK, Italy, and Spain with newer generations of aircraft carriers and the F-35B coming online in the near future. India was part of that group.

A better question would be did India make the right decision to move away from V/STOL to STOBAR?

IMHO India should have moved over to CATOBAR, a very proven system.

Yeah youre right I forget India basically has a free hand to buy any naval jet it wants aside from the F-35 as long as it has the cash for it. Its still a new concept to me

Well, do you think that America would sell the catapult system to India? the IAC was conceived and designed before the India-US relations thawed. I'm sure the idea for a CATOBAR carrier system came up, but was not possible due to the political as well as financial situation during time of design and development.

I think that India made the right decision in moving away from V/STOL. F-35B would not have been available to India by the time the first carrier was commissioned and even though she could buy used harriers from the british how long would they last? We've seen the problems with the upgrade efforts of the current harriers. The F-35b is not an option that is available to India in the near future as has been discussed on this forum.

The Indians are still concerned about the reliability of American material support during times of war and during times of peace. The Americans have been known to use such deals as instruments of political pressure. I think there would have been a lot of political pressure to prevent India from purchasing catapult equipment (unless America provided full TOT, which i doubt) because of vulnerability it would be subject to if America imposed an embargo on support equipment/spares for the catapult system.

I'm guessing you know a lot more about the catapult maintenance issues, so you tell me that if there were an embargo placed on spares to India would India be able to carry on and for how long? I know that Brazil has a CATOBAR carrier, how is that coming along? Is it just a problem of funding that is preventing normal operations or does it have to do with embargo's on critical equipment needed to maintain the catapult or a combination of both?
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Old March 22nd, 2009   #165
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Yeah youre right I forget India basically has a free hand to buy any naval jet it wants aside from the F-35 as long as it has the cash for it. Its still a new concept to me

Well, do you think that America would sell the catapult system to India? the IAC was conceived and designed before the India-US relations thawed. I'm sure the idea for a CATOBAR carrier system came up, but was not possible due to the political as well as financial situation during time of design and development.

I think that India made the right decision in moving away from V/STOL. F-35B would not have been available to India by the time the first carrier was commissioned and even though she could buy used harriers from the british how long would they last? We've seen the problems with the upgrade efforts of the current harriers. The F-35b is not an option that is available to India in the near future as has been discussed on this forum.

The Indians are still concerned about the reliability of American material support during times of war and during times of peace. The Americans have been known to use such deals as instruments of political pressure. I think there would have been a lot of political pressure to prevent India from purchasing catapult equipment (unless America provided full TOT, which i doubt) because of vulnerability it would be subject to if America imposed an embargo on support equipment/spares for the catapult system.

I'm guessing you know a lot more about the catapult maintenance issues, so you tell me that if there were an embargo placed on spares to India would India be able to carry on and for how long? I know that Brazil has a CATOBAR carrier, how is that coming along? Is it just a problem of funding that is preventing normal operations or does it have to do with embargo's on critical equipment needed to maintain the catapult or a combination of both?
The Brazilian Carrier uses a british catapult rather then a US catapult. The problem is that those catapults have been out of production since the 1960's. Sao Paulo is an old ship (about the same age as the USS Enterprise) and Brazil only has a limited budget to operate the ship.
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