This is a discussion on Indian Navy - 3 Carriers or more within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by dragonfire
Hi Bang Bang - pls no need to use "sir" etc as long as we are ...
This article says that the Chinese vessels were 'buzzed' several times by Indian assets. This could be a reality and the vessels would have recorded these overhead flights and it would have happened right from the time the chinese vessels entered the Indian Ocean through Malacca Straits. The submarine would have followed silently the group but would have engaged in trying to block the sonar only near yemen.
Also my first article talks of each navy's asset trying to figure out the gaps in Sonar etc am assuming the opportunity of trying to figure out the electronic signature of sorts of the new PLAN assets would be why IN would have sent the sub and other surveilance assets in the first place
I am posting below the complete article from SCMP (only beacuse one has to create a user login to get the complete article) which is the primary source.
It is also quite possible that India is seeking to build up an acoustic library. Depending on the quality of the sensors, as well as the computer system and algorithms used, it is possible to ID a specific class, or even individual vessel, off the various machine noises the vessel emits.
AFAIK the best harvesters for this sort of data are subs. The only thing which does not make sense to me, is the Indian sub attempting to "disrupt" the Chinese sonar. The only methods I am aware of doing so, would be for the Indian sub to start emitting itself, or dropping a noise-maker. Either of which would then reveal the sub's presence, if not exact location.
-Cheers
________________
"I'm doing the same thing I do every night, Pinky..." comment from one lab mouse to another.
It is also quite possible that India is seeking to build up an acoustic library. Depending on the quality of the sensors, as well as the computer system and algorithms used, it is possible to ID a specific class, or even individual vessel, off the various machine noises the vessel emits.
the place is starting to get populated - so I would be very very surprised if the IN does not have a philosophy to start seeding. after all, some very significant issues were raised post Tsunami
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todjaeger
AFAIK the best harvesters for this sort of data are subs. The only thing which does not make sense to me, is the Indian sub attempting to "disrupt" the Chinese sonar. The only methods I am aware of doing so, would be for the Indian sub to start emitting itself, or dropping a noise-maker. Either of which would then reveal the sub's presence, if not exact location.
-Cheers
it makes no sense at all - I'd suggest an enthusiastic but technically illiterate journalist is at work.....
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Does each Kilo submarine have its own individual acoustic signiture or all make the same noise?
Lets look at what we concretely know; China has the same kilo's as the Indians have, so we should be 100% correct in saying they have trained against similiar vessels.
Does each Kilo submarine have its own individual acoustic signiture or all make the same noise?
Lets look at what we concretely know; China has the same kilo's as the Indians have, so we should be 100% correct in saying they have trained against similiar vessels.
each sub is unique - each manufacturer leaves "tells" as well.
an indian kilo is not the same as a PLAN kilo
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
This article says that the Chinese vessels were 'buzzed' several times by Indian assets. This could be a reality and the vessels would have recorded these overhead flights and it would have happened right from the time the chinese vessels entered the Indian Ocean through Malacca Straits. The submarine would have followed silently the group but would have engaged in trying to block the sonar only near yemen.
Also my first article talks of each navy's asset trying to figure out the gaps in Sonar etc am assuming the opportunity of trying to figure out the electronic signature of sorts of the new PLAN assets would be why IN would have sent the sub and other surveilance assets in the first place
I am posting below the complete article from SCMP (only beacuse one has to create a user login to get the complete article) which is the primary source.
honestly, the writer just sounds like he has no clue what he is talking about. I'm sure something happened, but only the people on the ships would know exactly what that is.
Quote:
Lets look at what we concretely know; China has the same kilo's as the Indians have, so we should be 100% correct in saying they have trained against similiar vessels.
The Chinese ones should be of a more advanced variant.
After the IN has formaly denied these reports and we still havent seen an official version yet from the PLAN; apart from which there are anomalies like the sub actualy surfacing and the part about disrupting sonar to give away position/presence; am inclined to doubt if such an incident ever happened, although like they say there cant be smoke without fire
But on a serious note does any one know how this so called 'buzzing' happens, beacuse i feel like Todjaeger said tht India would have tried to do some activity to accumlate data on the electronic signatures of the chinese assets
the place is starting to get populated - so I would be very very surprised if the IN does not have a philosophy to start seeding. after all, some very significant issues were raised post Tsunami
Pls elaborate for non techies like me wht seeding means, and wht r the issues raised post the tsunami you are referring to
tnks
sorry for the double post - i keep getting logged out every like 60 secs or something
honestly, the writer just sounds like he has no clue what he is talking about. I'm sure something happened, but only the people on the ships would know exactly what that is.
The Chinese ones should be of a more advanced variant.
The way the writer states his source, the patrol and surveillance aircrafts would have followed the ships and collected what ever data they could along with the surface and subsurface ships as was expected of them.
Nothing too fancy in that.
Project 636? (PLAN kilos i.e.), did any news article about the club missile systems performance on the PLAN submarine come out recently?
The Chinese ones should be of a more advanced variant.
More advantage to the Chinese then. I know China operates two variants of Kilo's, thus they have first hand knowledge on the general capabilities of all Kilo's.
Indian navy submarine fleet is not in good shape. Many articles stating how long domestic retrofits are taking much longer (5 years plus for SundiKurti). Plus most of hulls are origionally made in 80s.
Last edited by Type59; February 6th, 2009 at 06:13 PM.
Location: one of the most tensed area of world -north bengal
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So the topic turns from IN AC to so-called indo-china conflict..... may be interesting and worthy to discuss but I am more interested to know about the esscort and other helping-hands efforts which are taken/under consideration to make an AC more effective ........ plz some one put some light on that as alone an AC is somewhat uneffective by all mean.
So the topic turns from IN AC to so-called indo-china conflict..... may be interesting and worthy to discuss but I am more interested to know about the esscort and other helping-hands efforts which are taken/under consideration to make an AC more effective ........ plz some one put some light on that as alone an AC is somewhat uneffective by all mean.
The topic still remains the same its just tht the Indian Navy thread has been closed for some time and this thread was discussin related topic, i have requested the moderators to unlock the other thread - still waiting though
And its not at all discusising an Indo China conflict at all, it merely discussing news reports concerning either navies alleged confrontation.
As far as i Know although India has fielded two carriers before there werent any announced carrier groups as such, am assuming the mission role dictated the compliment as such, the typical compliment of vessels accompanying the carrier could be
I doubt if a AC by itself is as uneffective as u may be assuming, in fact it was very useful in effecting a naval blocade of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in '71 and the harriers decimated many targets in the coastal regions after being deployed of the carrier INS Vikrant
Location: one of the most tensed area of world -north bengal
Posts: 5
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Quote:
I doubt if a AC by itself is as uneffective as u may be assuming, in fact it was very useful in effecting a naval blocade of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in '71 and the harriers decimated many targets in the coastal regions after being deployed of the carrier INS Vikrant
Yes it true but again you cant ignore the time line and geographycal (Read geo-polytical also) situation of the counter part. Even the threat came in form of "Ghazi" which destroyed by the INS Rajput as pre planed. That shows how much support needed to make a safe passage for an AC. The situation became much more worse nowdays. You must not forget an AC is not only a high-cost ,moral booster its also a strategic stronghold on the water which available in a very few number, thus a obvius prime terget for the opponents.
In my personal oppinion their must be a scouting viz attacking sub to secure the path. so if 3 Ac deployed it means 3 more Sub also needed along with several other assets. After all you just dont want to send your war-marshal in the battelfield without other soldiers no matter how much skillful he is, even if he is the worlds strongest.
That's like saying my AK-47 is better than yours, cause it's got a butt stock
I would put my money on sensors, crew experience ( training ), and battle awareness any situation.
Given that no crew with knowledge and experience is ever going to comment, leave alone the capabilities, our knowledge is redundant.
We may also consider the points of tension in the Indian ocean which is one of the biggest shipping lanes. (the oil tankers aint that quiet)
you may want to check up on the version of kilo each country got. Btw, Chinese kilos have also went through extensive works in Chinese shipyards afterward to upgrade sensors and such. If you ever seen one of the pictures of the command center for Indian kilo, you'd see how archaic it is. I can't comment on crew training, since nobody knows what it is for both countries.
Quote:
Project 636? (PLAN kilos i.e.), did any news article about the club missile systems performance on the PLAN submarine come out recently?
I think things are a little better now. They finally did test launches last year for the first time, I think the results were satisfactory.
The topic still remains the same its just tht the Indian Navy thread has been closed for some time and this thread was discussin related topic, i have requested the moderators to unlock the other thread - still waiting though
And its not at all discusising an Indo China conflict at all, it merely discussing news reports concerning either navies alleged confrontation.
As far as i Know although India has fielded two carriers before there werent any announced carrier groups as such, am assuming the mission role dictated the compliment as such, the typical compliment of vessels accompanying the carrier could be
I doubt if a AC by itself is as uneffective as u may be assuming, in fact it was very useful in effecting a naval blocade of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in '71 and the harriers decimated many targets in the coastal regions after being deployed of the carrier INS Vikrant
Was India fighting a modern military in East Pakistan? I am right to assume Pakistan is not a major world power especially in the 1970s.
