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German Navy

This is a discussion on German Navy within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Warship activities updated by Kato. http://rearechelon.blogspot.com/sear...&max-results=4 Great work Kato and much appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111...


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Old January 10th, 2008   #1
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German Navy

Warship activities updated by Kato.

http://rearechelon.blogspot.com/sear...&max-results=4

Great work Kato and much appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
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Old January 10th, 2008   #2
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Gonna expand on it quite a bit over here even. It's time we had a thread on the German Navy anyway, other than the two that everyone went offtopic on

The four frigates i mention in there that i can't find current info on are:

Type 124
F219 Sachsen
Type 123
F215 Brandenburg
F216 Schleswig-Holstein
F217 Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

F215 was hanging around the Marinearsenal a lot the last summer and fall. F217 has also been spotted there a few times in fall.

All four i suspect are currently on "downtime" somewhat, and will probably be used for some training this year, if they don't go on deployment. One of the three Type 123 will definitely replace Bayern in MTF448 in a few months.

There will be one frigate needed as replacement for Augsburg in CTF150, which i somewhat suspect will be Karlsruhe (F212). Would fit in anyway, being a Type 122 that would replace a Type 122. Either her, or Emden (F210), which would also be available.

What's noticable is that out of the 8 Type 122 frigates, 4 are now on deployment, one recently returned from deployment and one from training, while two are just in/out of their overhaul. Really examplifies their nickname of the German Navy's "workhorses".

The Type 123 pretty much cycle through deployments as Taskforce command ships only - and MTF448 is the only one the German Navy has at the moment, so there'd "always" be three available. Good thing too, because they're supposed to go into overhaul one at a time over the next few years. If they'd get a similar upgrade to the one Bayern already has - mostly LFTASS plus some structural chances - they'd be able to relieve the Type 122 in their ASW role, e.g. with the two SNMGs. But that's quite a bit in the future still.

The Type 124 similarly serve primarily as Taskforce command ships, as well as AAW of course. As the need for that is pretty low really, they serve in specific training roles to those tasks primarily (like Hamburg on that EAV cruise). Probably one of the other two will again go through GOST or FOST at Plymouth sometime later this year as well - the newest software upgrades to fix their problems do have to be tested thoroughly. After that - say next year - i could see a potential UNIFIL deployment for a Type 124, if we're still in that by then. Maybe alongside a Type 130 corvette even.

The absence of submarines from deployments is also something i've noticed. To be fair though, two of them just returned from one such deployment. And then there's to consider that the tender for the squadron isn't ready yet - meaning there's only limited possibilities for them anyway (Main is still being reconfigured, but should be ready soon). In addition to that, there's the ongoing drawdown as old Type 206A subs are being decommissioned - afaik, there are now 7 remaining, with a further 3 to be decommed sometime soon, and the other 4 to be decommed within the next 5 years (at which point the two Type 212A Batch 2 now under construction would commission).

The "vacant" SNMCMG2 position is somewhat interesting. As SNMCMG2 operates in the Mediterranean I'd suspect the German Navy points at the presence of two German MCMV with MTF448 in the area if someone addresses that "vacancy". Though we'll see about that once they withdraw.
I could realistically see a switch sometime in the next few months or so with Überherrn and Auerbach withdrawing, and a MCMV being attached to SNMCMG2 again instead. Guess it depends more on how UNIFIL develops though.

Regarding those two ships, i edited the Blog post btw. They were accidentally marked as "rotated in Jul 07", but actually rotated in September.

Last edited by kato; January 10th, 2008 at 06:20 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2008   #3
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GOST or FOST
difference between these are?
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Old January 10th, 2008   #4
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difference between these are?
FOST is Flag Officer Sea Training. Usually it's held concurrent with a GOST exercise (German Operational Sea Training).

With relation to the ship itself, FOST usually is pretty much a review of a GOST. Auditing it, sorta.
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Old January 11th, 2008   #5
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Hmm, I don't know were I read it but IIRC Hessen is going to the Lebanon this year.

Maybe I find the source again. As I am naturally not that up to date regarding our navy don't do me any harm if this is wrong...
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Old January 11th, 2008   #6
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Hmm, I don't know were I read it but IIRC Hessen is going to the Lebanon this year.
Doubt it, at least with the next rotation. October/November, maybe.

This doesn't read all that good either, if you look behind the lines:

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Im Herbst 2007 folgte Fregatte HAMBURG dem Schwesterschiff SACHSEN mit einer vollen 6-wöchigen Einsatzausbildungsphase beim FOST. Zwar trat Fregatte HAMBURG diese Ausbildung nicht mit dem aktuellsten Software-Release an, bewies aber trotzdem im Vergleich zum GOST des Typschiffes 15 Monate zuvor tatsächlich eine erheblich verbesserte Systemstabilität der Einsatzsoftware, es kam zu keinerlei Systemabstürzen mehr! Dies gibt deutlich Anlass zu Optimismus in Bezug auf die durch die Marine in 2006 begonnenen Maßnahmen zur Herstellung der vollen Einsatzfähigkeit der Fregatten der Klasse F 124.
(short translation: "At least the CDS didn't crash this time around!")
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Old January 11th, 2008   #7
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Ok, this read doesn't look like they made a very significant progress with the F-124 system problems.

Sometimes I really wonder why mistakes are done over and over again.

How many new systems/ships has our Navy so far integrated during it's history?

And finally with a much more revolutionary system like the F-124 they just don't cooperate very much with the industry.
As a taxpayer this could make someone very angry...

K130s also doesn't enter service like planned (And in a downgraded version anyway) and this makes me very sceptical about the ability of the navy and industry to implement the F125s.
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Old January 11th, 2008   #8
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Ok, this read doesn't look like they made a very significant progress with the F-124 system problems.
Oh, they did. With the 2004 software release, the system would crash whenever one touched the simulation parameters

The target date 2008 for availability has been started since they started these "repairs" in 2006, so not that surprising. With a optimistic view, they could be declared "ready" if everything goes alright on the 6-month EAV cruise Hamburg is on. That would mean June/July.

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How many new systems/ships has our Navy so far integrated during it's history?
D101, F120, F123. That's it for "home designs" pre-124, for combat ships anyway (except minehunters, where Germany has had pretty much everything homebuilt). And D101 and F120 were back in the 60s. Everything else was "bought" - D103, Fletchers, P148 - or developed from such bought designs - P143, P143A, F122. Oh yeah, the 60s Thetis class subchasers were a local design too.

When considering "modern" warships, generally only the successful integration of the F123 is mentioned. Because other than that, there hasn't been any really.

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K130s also doesn't enter service like planned (And in a downgraded version anyway) and this makes me very sceptical about the ability of the navy and industry to implement the F125s.
K130, well... Braunschweig had a little problem with the wind from the side, the shore and her propellers when going through the Nord-Ostsee-Kanal in December. So she's in the yard, instead of commissioning this month. Again.
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Old January 11th, 2008   #9
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Thanks for the very interesting info.
Sad to read about all these mishaps with F124 and K130...
When would F125 production start if no delays happen ? Is the funding there for the planned 4 ships ?

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Old January 11th, 2008   #10
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When would F125 production start if no delays happen ? Is the funding there for the planned 4 ships ?
2009/2010, roundabout. First delivery 2014.

Funding is not a problem really, as the contract is signed. The Bundeswehr rather tends to stretch out funding on projects without contract or with contracts up for extension.

With the K130, i think they're sort of stubborn. They could always commission one of the other two that are "ready", but they're waiting for the "Namesake" of the class to be ready. If everything runs alright from now on (yeah, fat chance), we'll see five corvettes commissioning this year. Probably in a pretty close timeframe too - by about October or so all five should be "ready for commissioning" trials-wise.
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Old January 12th, 2008   #11
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2009/2010, roundabout. First delivery 2014.

Funding is not a problem really, as the contract is signed. The Bundeswehr rather tends to stretch out funding on projects without contract or with contracts up for extension.

With the K130, i think they're sort of stubborn. They could always commission one of the other two that are "ready", but they're waiting for the "Namesake" of the class to be ready. If everything runs alright from now on (yeah, fat chance), we'll see five corvettes commissioning this year. Probably in a pretty close timeframe too - by about October or so all five should be "ready for commissioning" trials-wise.
Barely in time to replace the F122 Bremen... Still good to have them funded. Let me summarize to check if I'm still up to speed : around 2015-2020 there should be 3 F124, 4 F123, 4 F125, 5 K130 => that's all for the main escort force right ?

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Old January 12th, 2008   #12
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around 2015-2020 there should be 3 F124, 4 F123, 4 F125, 5 K130 => that's all for the main escort force right ?
Yes, plus the 10 P143A FACs still soldiering on, which do fill a ASuW escort role, primarily in coastal waters. Those will be replaced by 6 new "K131" corvettes around/after 2020 according to current plans.

FACs/K131 and F125 assigned to "Stabilization Forces", everything else to "Intervention Forces" as escorts.
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Old January 14th, 2008   #13
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Yes, plus the 10 P143A FACs still soldiering on, which do fill a ASuW escort role, primarily in coastal waters. Those will be replaced by 6 new "K131" corvettes around/after 2020 according to current plans.

FACs/K131 and F125 assigned to "Stabilization Forces", everything else to "Intervention Forces" as escorts.
Very interesting, so the F125 keeps its primary land attack role and isn't just another FFG with secondary land bombardment tasks due to 127/64... I'm saying this because even the French land attack FREMMs would primarily remain multi-purpose escorts (same for the Italian ones).

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Old January 14th, 2008   #14
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Yep, and that's also how the armament suite of the F125 is derived.

Strong self-defense suite equivalent to the other FFG, land-attack suite as required, but no area air-defense system (classified as "Verbandsschutz", any system that can protect more than the own ship effectively ie ESSM and above), and no ASW (other than with a embarked ASW helo).

F125 and FACs have a limited escort mission within their scope, primarily anti-surface and littoral only (the FACs have pulled escort duty for the Gibraltar Straits before e.g.).

The K130 has virtually an identical armament suite to the F125 (other than the land-attack stuff), but, within the "intervention forces", is meant as a high-intensity ASuW escort, in particular for littoral zones. I.e. pretty much the same for "hot zones".

The naval share of the "intervention forces" is already pretty big (12 escorts), although the airforce share is nothing to scoff at either (iirc somewhere around 6-8 squadrons?). Their dedicated land forces share is about two divisions at the moment.
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Old January 17th, 2008   #15
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DMKN has a number of speeches from HiTaTa 2008 online now.

Pointed out a couple highlights from those:
http://rearechelon.blogspot.com/2008...tata-2008.html
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