This is a discussion on German Navy within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; the sensor suite is also not that unique. the holland class also features a fixed par (s-band air/surface and x-band ...
the sensor suite is also not that unique. the holland class also features a fixed par (s-band air/surface and x-band surface radar) and 360° eo system fitted in the i-mast. and the holland class is an opv which cost's much less than the f-125.
i think we will see more similar arrangements on other new ships in the future. time goes on and the absalon will be 10 or more years old before the first f-125 will be in service.
The 127mm on the F125 has considerably longer range especially with Vulcano ammunition (40-65nm), and is also tied into Germany's artillery network in order to provide far better results in NGFS.
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Originally Posted by radar07
the holland class also features a fixed par (s-band air/surface and x-band surface radar)
You're aware that there can be certain ... differences in radar performance depending on various variables?
I-400 actually needs to use two radars because s-band sucks when it comes to high-resolution surveillance. Hence the Sea Watcher X-Band tacked on, which does high-resolution, but itself is effectively useless beyond scant radar horizon... TRS-4D is also a lot better at multi-target tracking btw. And it integrates IFF Mode 5, which I-400 shelves to yet another separate system.
You're aware that there can be certain ... differences in radar performance depending on various variables?
I-400 actually needs to use two radars because s-band sucks when it comes to high-resolution surveillance. Hence the Sea Watcher X-Band tacked on, which does high-resolution, but itself is effectively useless beyond scant radar horizon... TRS-4D is also a lot better at multi-target tracking btw. And it integrates IFF Mode 5, which I-400 shelves to yet another separate system.
for sure the systems are different but can you provide any information about the trs-4d? there are basic information about sea master/sea watcher on the thales webside but eads doesn't provide information about trs-4d. so i'm not sure why do you think that either trs-4d will have a higher resolution nor why trs-4d will have a lot better multi target tracking.
and using two radar bands instead of one is common practise because every radar band has advantages and disadvantages.
The 127mm on the F125 has considerably longer range especially with Vulcano ammunition (40-65nm), and is also tied into Germany's artillery network in order to provide far better results in NGFS..
I thought the 127mm was procured for the Absalons to take advantage of extended range ammunition?
Actually much as I like the Absalons, I think the Danes missed a trick, building 2 + 3 frigates to protect. On a moderately increased displacement they could have built 3 ships with the combined and superior capability and at an even lower project cost.
But I have to take my hat off to the Danes these ships are just so what modern navies need, yes they carry boats but the versitility of the flexdeck is excellent.
I have wondered why the concept has not been adopted elsewhere; does this reflect issues with the original concept, or the natural conservatism of Navies particularly when the innovation has not come from the top tier.
You would probably get 2 for 1 Absalon v F125, this looks a much better proposition.
You would probably get 2 for 1 Absalon v F125, this looks a much better proposition.
It´s not that simple. The concept of the F 125 is to have an outstanding endurance. Is is meant to stay up to two years in its operational area without needing a dockyard. For that purpose it´ll have two rotating crews. By the way the number of needed crewmembers is dramatically decreased compared to the other german frigates. It needs only 120 crewmen to be fully operational.
If the weaponry is sufficient? I´d preferred real ASW- or AAW- components...
I would argue that its a cruiser in the true sense of the word. Long endurance & lots of redundancy. Doesnt mean it needs to be the most heavily armed warship sailing the seas.
I thought the 127mm was procured for the Absalons to take advantage of extended range ammunition?
The 127mm on the Absalon is a BAE 5"/62 Mk45 Mod 4. ERGM was cancelled in 2008, BTERM was effectively dropped in 2006. Base-bleed ammo in the 5"/62 supposedly has a range of 20nm according to BAE, regular ammunition goes for about 13-14nm.
Unguided Vulcano BER with 38nm range has entered serial production this year for usage on FREMM (127/64), LCF (127/54) and F125 (127/64).
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Originally Posted by Onkel
It´s not that simple.
Actually, the difference is mostly in the Absalon being built to "militarized commercial standards" by a civilian shipyard. Germany has had some experience with COTS components in military ships in the last couple years (e.g. civilian diesels on the Berlin EGVs), and that experience has been a bad experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radar07
i'm not sure why do you think that either trs-4d will have a higher resolution nor why trs-4d will have a lot better multi target tracking.
Resolution-vs-range is a direct result of the radar band used (E/F- plus X- vs G-Band). In addition, TRS-4D has a declassified update frequency of "under one second", whereas Sea Master 400 (air search) is switchable between update frequencies of two seconds and one second and Sea Watcher 100 (surface search) updates at 1.0 seconds short-range, 1.6 seconds at mid-range and 2.0 seconds at long range in an all-in-one simultaneous mode.
TRS-4D has a released tracking capacity of 1,000 targets (sea/air), Sea Watcher 100 can only track 200 surface targets; for Sea Master 400 such a figure hasn't been released, but is probably at somewhere around 250 simultaneous targets.
Resolution-vs-range is a direct result of the radar band used (E/F- plus X- vs G-Band). In addition, TRS-4D has a declassified update frequency of "under one second", whereas Sea Master 400 (air search) is switchable between update frequencies of two seconds and one second and Sea Watcher 100 (surface search) updates at 1.0 seconds short-range, 1.6 seconds at mid-range and 2.0 seconds at long range in an all-in-one simultaneous mode.
TRS-4D has a released tracking capacity of 1,000 targets (sea/air), Sea Watcher 100 can only track 200 surface targets; for Sea Master 400 such a figure hasn't been released, but is probably at somewhere around 250 simultaneous targets.
ok if the trs-4d stil uses c-band the resolution will be better than the s-band sea master but whats about the range than? a c-band radar as a single radar solution doesn't sounds like the best long range surveillance solution for a 7000t frigate in my ears. i would be interessted to get a view on the source about the trs-4d figures (if you could provide it) but what i can say so far is that you mainly compare sea watch which is a surface search radar (in other words a high tech navigation radar) with trs-4d which is the main (and for the f-125 the only) air surveillance radar. i can't see a difference between 1 sec update rate for sea master and "under" 1 sec for trs-4d (most probably 0,95 sec ). in general for par the update rate depends on many values like range, no of targets to track, other tasks like search operation etc. so a single figure for the update rate can only be a generalized value.
i don't know why sea master should only be able to track 250 targets. smart-s mk2 for example is able to handle 500 targets so i'm pretty sure that sea master is able to handle much more than 250 tracks (even more than 500).
The German tabloid press today finally took note that there's a naval elint/sigint mission going on off the coast of Syria. Of course they portrayed it as chockful of BND - German foreign intelligence - agents handing information to US and UK counterparts who feed it to Syrian rebels, which is rather good for a little laugh.
Navy officials deflected along the lines of "no, we don't run spy missions for/with the BND" and "no, there's no BND equipment mounted on that ship".
For some reason they failed to take note that this strategic recon mission has been going on for a year now, since it was shifted over from Libya. Or that it's essentially part of a persistent eastern mediterranean sigint mission that's been going on for about seven years now and that the Israeli Air Force took enough offense to to fire upon them in 2006.
The German tabloid press today finally took note that there's a naval elint/sigint mission going on off the coast of Syria. Of course they portrayed it as chockful of BND - German foreign intelligence - agents handing information to US and UK counterparts who feed it to Syrian rebels, which is rather good for a little laugh.
Navy officials deflected along the lines of "no, we don't run spy missions for/with the BND" and "no, there's no BND equipment mounted on that ship".
For some reason they failed to take note that this strategic recon mission has been going on for a year now, since it was shifted over from Libya. Or that it's essentially part of a persistent eastern mediterranean sigint mission that's been going on for about seven years now and that the Israeli Air Force took enough offense to to fire upon them in 2006.
). in general for par the update rate depends on many values like range, no of targets to track, other tasks like search operation etc. so a single figure for the update rate can only be a generalized value.
