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French Navy Replaces British Royal Navy As 1st West European Navy

This is a discussion on French Navy Replaces British Royal Navy As 1st West European Navy within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; after the recent cuts of the british ministry of defence (alias ministry of cuts), the french navy has clearly replaced ...


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Old April 19th, 2006   #1
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French Navy Replaces British Royal Navy As 1st West European Navy

after the recent cuts of the british ministry of defence (alias ministry of cuts), the french navy has clearly replaced royal navy as the most powerful navy in western europe, here some examples.

ROYAL NAVY- paid off in reserve of carrier hms invincible, withdrawal of the sea harriers, reductions in escrots numbers from 35 in 1996 to 25 in 2006, only one carrier hms illustrious in active service, delays in construction of astute class submarines, reductions from planned 12 type 45 new destroyers to only 6, delays and uncertain future of construction of new cvf carriers from planned in service date of 2012- 2015 to now 2016 as a minimum and maybe only one will be now built, hms queen elizabeth, delays in the project studies of replacements for type 22 and 23, etc


FRENCH NAVY- NEW POWERFUL MISTRAL CLASS LHD,S MISTRAL AND TONNERRE BEING ACCEPTED IN ONE YEAR, ORDERS OF AT LEAST NEW 17 NEW ESCORTS, strong commitments to build the second carrier, orders of more rafale fighters for the charles de gaulle carrier, future orders of new auxiliary ships, etc.

with all these comparisons it,s obvious that the royal navy is no longer the most polerful navy in europe but the problem is that if britis mod follows this way in another 10 years the british navy will be in the same scale of power as the italian and spanish navies, certainly if things not chenge drastically in 10 yeras it will be a second division navy
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Old April 19th, 2006   #2
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ROYAL NAVY- paid off in reserve of carrier hms invincible, withdrawal of the sea harriers, reductions in escrots numbers from 35 in 1996 to 25 in 2006, only one carrier hms illustrious in active service, delays in construction of astute class submarines, reductions from planned 12 type 45 new destroyers to only 6, delays and uncertain future of construction of new cvf carriers from planned in service date of 2012- 2015 to now 2016 as a minimum and maybe only one will be now built, hms queen elizabeth, delays in the project studies of replacements for type 22 and 23, etc
I would say the French Navy's equivalent to the RN Type 45 is the Horizons and not the FREMM's. The French Navy will only receive 2 Horizons vs the 6 Type 45's for RN.

And the French commitment to a second carrier has turned into a CVF derivative. So it looks as if the UK and France will build their carriers as a joint programme.

But IMV there certainly is a gap in aviation wrt the Sea Harriers.

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FRENCH NAVY- NEW POWERFUL MISTRAL CLASS LHD,S MISTRAL AND TONNERRE BEING ACCEPTED IN ONE YEAR, ORDERS OF AT LEAST NEW 17 NEW ESCORTS, strong commitments to build the second carrier, orders of more rafale fighters for the charles de gaulle carrier, future orders of new auxiliary ships, etc.
The RN also has the HMS Ocean and the under construction RFA Bays.

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with all these comparisons it,s obvious that the royal navy is no longer the most polerful navy in europe but the problem is that if britis mod follows this way in another 10 years the british navy will be in the same scale of power as the italian and spanish navies, certainly if things not chenge drastically in 10 yeras it will be a second division navy
I don't think having a bigger navy than France is an objective for the RN.

Cheers


Last edited by Grand Danois; April 19th, 2006 at 04:00 PM.
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Old April 20th, 2006   #3
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The unfortunate thing is that the escort units and the A/A Sea Harriers have taken a hit in numbers to pay for the new aircraft carriers,which when finally authorised will be a massive upgrade in capability.

The amphibious units have never been stronger, the only thing that has had any money spent on, though their Air Lift Capabitity is a factor + the lack of second LPH.

The Navy has taken major budget hits from the army & air force from operations in Iraq & Afganistan!!

Short term hits for hopfully long term gains.
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Old April 20th, 2006   #4
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I think that the French navy has been stronger than the RN for some time. 3 ski jump carriers for Harriers was no match for the fixed wing carriers of the French fleet. Now that they are down to one it is no contest. If the UK doesn't go ahead and build three new carriers and the projected 12 45 type destoyers, they will be reduced to a 3rd tier navy as India and China take her place (hate to see that happen).
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Old April 20th, 2006   #5
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Originally Posted by overlander
FRENCH NAVY- NEW POWERFUL MISTRAL CLASS LHD,S MISTRAL AND TONNERRE BEING ACCEPTED IN ONE YEAR, ORDERS OF AT LEAST NEW 17 NEW ESCORTS, strong commitments to build the second carrier, orders of more rafale fighters for the charles de gaulle carrier, future orders of new auxiliary ships, etc.
Not sure how the new Mistral LHDs are 'powerful' yet no mention for the RN of two not so old LPDs (HM ships Albion and Bulwark); one LPH HMS Ocean; four LSDs of the Bay class; and, six RoRo ships all in the amphib role?

As to the carriers I think we've been here before. The RN CVF (two still planned) is now the preferred option for France for its second carrer - and a more capable carrier than CDG...

To be honest I don't think numbers alone decide which is more powerful than the next however having said that share concerns with others over escort numbers. I think it fair to say the RN remains the benchmark for a number of nations and don't fear it slipping as far down league tables as you suggest. IMHO of course. The RN is enduring some painful cuts but it should be in far better shape in five to ten years, as will the French Navy... Nothing to match either in Western Europe...
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Old April 20th, 2006   #6
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Looking at future developments, the royal navy can regard itself as powerful naval force. The future submarine fleet will consist of Astute class boats, said to be very similar with U.S Virginia class submarines, France hasn’t got anything close, the future fleet arm will consist of stealthy F/A-35, superior to the Rafale.
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Old April 20th, 2006   #7
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Originally Posted by PJ-10 BrahMos
Looking at future developments, the royal navy can regard itself as powerful naval force. The future submarine fleet will consist of Astute class boats, said to be very similar with U.S Virginia class submarines, France hasn’t got anything close, the future fleet arm will consist of stealthy F/A-35, superior to the Rafale.
I thought the UK was considering dropping out of the JSF program. If the US doesn't waive the technology upgrades transfer they are going to drop out of the program due to over budget costs. This will leave a big question mark on who has the best naval fighter.

Last edited by Big-E; April 20th, 2006 at 08:59 AM.
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Old April 20th, 2006   #8
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I thought the UK was considering dropping out of the JSF program. If the US doesn't waive the technology upgrades transfer they are going to drop out of the program due to over budget costs. This will leave a big question mark on who has the best naval fighter.
Personally i think its a ploy to get the best possible deal for Britain, We wanted the source codes, i read somewhere that the top brass wanted some stealth tech as well.

I dont think costs much of an issue
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Old April 20th, 2006   #9
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Originally Posted by Big-E
I thought the UK was considering dropping out of the JSF program. If the US doesn't waive the technology upgrades transfer they are going to drop out of the program due to over budget costs. This will leave a big question mark on who has the best naval fighter.
Not sure there is a real alternative in terms of a carrier based aircraft as a navalised Typhoon isn't going to fly - interesting to speculate if the Rafale could be an option. France takes a UK carrier design, the RN a French fighter..? Unlikely I guess.

Truth be told it sounds like old fashioned haggling to me as the UK investment in this programme (JSF) is significant. 2Bn is a lot of money in any ones book.
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Old April 20th, 2006   #10
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Not sure there is a real alternative in terms of a carrier based aircraft as a navalised Typhoon isn't going to fly - interesting to speculate if the Rafale could be an option. France takes a UK carrier design, the RN a French fighter..? Unlikely I guess.

Truth be told it sounds like old fashioned haggling to me as the UK investment in this programme (JSF) is significant. 2Bn is a lot of money in any ones book.
Yeah, 2B is a huge investment. I couldn't believe that the UK would do away with a 5th Generation fighter with that much invested over who does the software upgrades. I had to see the press release to believe it.
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Old April 20th, 2006   #11
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Originally Posted by Big-E
Yeah, 2B is a huge investment. I couldn't believe that the UK would do away with a 5th Generation fighter with that much invested over who does the software upgrades. I had to see the press release to believe it.
2B without access might be viewed as questionable at the very least... I'd rather see the RN with the CTOL version with capabilty to cross deck aircraft with the USN, but that's a seperate issue
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Old April 20th, 2006   #12
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It really depends on how we define powerful,

The French navy at the moment has more in number of escorts but compare say a Type 22 Batch 3 Class Frigate to a La Fayette Class Frigates size, sensors, armarments, Helicopters etc The Royal Navy unit wins hands down.

The French Navy new class FREMM frigates is a 17 ship 5,500 ton class built with the Italian Navy, is where the French Navy has more escort on paper than the Royal Navy.

The Class is a mix of Land Attack/Special forces/UAV Launch and Anti Sumarine working in the Litteriol Warfare enviroment.

More a Corvette with a heavy punch than the Type 23 frigate Class which has multi capabilities and per ton traditionaly is a destroyer size!!

The Horizon Class/Type 45 which in both Fleets has dropped in numbers
France to 2 & the U.K To 8/6 both Classes are about the same in capability.

Though the mid to later units of the Type 45 are likley to have Tomahawk Land attack cabability,Harpoon Anti Ship missiles, point defence capability.

French units frigates/corvettes are larger in number but pound for pound compared to the british units they are weaker in most areas and are less multi faceted.
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Old April 20th, 2006   #13
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It really depends on how we define powerful,

The French navy at the moment has more in number of escorts but compare say a Type 22 Batch 3 Class Frigate to a La Fayette Class Frigates size, sensors, armarments, Helicopters etc The Royal Navy unit wins hands down.

The French Navy new class FREMM frigates is a 17 ship 5,500 ton class built with the Italian Navy, is where the French Navy has more escort on paper than the Royal Navy.

The Class is a mix of Land Attack/Special forces/UAV Launch and Anti Sumarine working in the Litteriol Warfare enviroment.

More a Corvette with a heavy punch than the Type 23 frigate Class which has multi capabilities and per ton traditionaly is a destroyer size!!

The Horizon Class/Type 45 which in both Fleets has dropped in numbers
France to 2 & the U.K To 8/6 both Classes are about the same in capability.

Though the mid to later units of the Type 45 are likley to have Tomahawk Land attack cabability,Harpoon Anti Ship missiles, point defence capability.

French units frigates/corvettes are larger in number but pound for pound compared to the british units they are weaker in most areas and are less multi faceted.
Agreed. Hope you are right on Land attack for the T45's..
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Old April 20th, 2006   #14
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2B without access might be viewed as questionable at the very least... I'd rather see the RN with the CTOL version with capabilty to cross deck aircraft with the USN, but that's a seperate issue
Completly Agree

Having to pay that kind of money with out source codes to adapt new weapons systems is maddness.

As a Level one partner you would expect consultation and some independance

As Australia,Norway and the other Partner nations all seem to be getting on the band wagon now, there will be more pressure.

But for the U.k I think this might become the straw that breaks the camels back as there was no consultation on the cancelation of the second engine.
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Old April 23rd, 2006   #15
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Originally Posted by Big-E
I think that the French navy has been stronger than the RN for some time. 3 ski jump carriers for Harriers was no match for the fixed wing carriers of the French fleet. Now that they are down to one it is no contest. If the UK doesn't go ahead and build three new carriers and the projected 12 45 type destoyers, they will be reduced to a 3rd tier navy as India and China take her place (hate to see that happen).
why would you hate to see that happen?
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