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Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

This is a discussion on Dehli Class vs Sovernmey within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; By Mazumdar Mrityunjoy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Given that the Chinese PLAN (People's Liberation Army Navy) is in the process of acquiring 2 ...


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Old November 12th, 2004   #1
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Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

By Mazumdar Mrityunjoy


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Given that the Chinese PLAN (People's Liberation Army Navy) is in the process of acquiring 2 Sovremenny Class destroyers from Russia with plans to license build more, it is timely to compare the vessel with India's Delhi Class destroyer. Both ships represent a significant gain in qualitative terms for their respective navies, more so for for the PLAN as their ships are not exactly comparable to IN (Indian Navy) ships. At the present time, it can be argued that the IN does possess a distinct advantage in the Indian Ocean, but this will change dramatically once large scale induction of the P956 vessels begins in the PLAN. The Delhi Class (P15) destroyer program was originally scheduled for 6 units but this has been scaled back to 3 units (4 possibly) in favor of the much improved Project 17 (P17) Frigate.

Even though the IN is going ahead with the P17 FFG which is to be better equipped than the P15, and by extension, better than the Sovremenny (P956A), there is a whole new quality to quantity. The P956A and P15 classes are broadly comparable and although there are a number of similarities between the two classes, it's the differences that stand out and are worth examining. The Delhi Class is best described as a multi-role ship of Indian, Russian and Western origin with a significant ASW capability while the Sovremenny Class is intended primarily for the anti-ship role. Both vessels have a significant anti-air capability, but the Sovremenny has a minimal ASW weapons and sensor suite.

The Delhi is very similar to the Sovrenemmy-II in its displacement & dimensions; 6900 tons full load, 163 meters in length, 17 meters in beam and 6.5 meters in draught vs. 7800 tons full load, 156 meters in length, 17.3 meters in beam, and a draught of 6.5 meters. The greater tonnage of the Sovremenny in accounted for, in part, by the much greater weight of it's missile armament, namely the 8 SS-N-22 Sunburn AShMs. The Delhi has a CODAG (Combined Diesel & Gas Turbine) propulsion system while the Sovremenny has a steam turbine propulsion system. Advantages of a CODAG system is that it permits very rapid start up from the rest and also offers superior acceleration and performance. Both vessels use two shafts. Top speed for both ships is identical at about 33-35 knots.

The crew sizes are decidedly larger for the Delhi (360-420) vs. 300-370 for the Sovremenny. This generally follows the Indian Navy trend for excessive manning levels. The most visible differences between the ships are in the main gun and missile armament along with the electronics. The Sovremenny carries eight of the very potent SS-N-22 Sunburn supersonic AShMs and 2 twin 130mm (AK-130) DP guns while the Delhi has sixteen Kh-35 Urans (IN Designation 3M60 and NATO Designation: SS-N-25 Switchblade) subsonic AShMs and a 100mm (AK-100) DP gun. The gun systems on both vessels are controlled by the MR-184/184M (NATO Designation: Kite Screech) fire control radar and the whole fire-control system may be referred to as MR 218 Lev.

Also the torpedo armament is slightly different: on the Delhi, a 533mm quintuple launcher is mounted amid ships between the two funnels (as in the Kashin Class) while the Sovremenny has two twin 533mm mounts on either side. It is possible that the SS-N-15 ASW rocket (carrying a torpedo) with a range of about 50km can be launched from the Delhi. It is also very likely that the 533mm version of the newer SS-N-16 is carried by the Delhi. Also the Delhi carries 2 Sea King helicopters while the Sovremenny carries one Ka-27 helicopter primarily for OTH (over the horizon) targeting duties for it's SS-N-22 missiles.

The SS-N-22 Sunburn is an extremely potent AShM. It's supersonic speed (Mach 3), combined with it's sea-skimming mode, gives it a maximum range of 160km. It continuously adjusts its altitude and uses combined active-passive radar guidance and is almost impossible to jam. When it approaches the target, it automatically goes into a series of sharp S-shaped maneuvers, with overload as much as 15 G, in order to disable the enemy's interception. It is possible that the current generation of air defense missiles and anti-missile CIWS artillery would be futile in the face of such a missile, primarily because of very limited detection (and subsequent reaction) times. Also, it has been argued that even if the incoming missile was blown up or damaged by the last ditch CIWS gun systems, the oncoming debris would cause substantial damage to the ship.

The Kh-35 Uran sea-skimmer is a much smaller missile with a maximum range of about 130 km and is comparable to the Harpoon. The Delhi will embark a SS-N-22 variant, called the Koral, once it enters service. This would represent a very significant shift in the Delhi's capabilities thus bringing them much more in line with the PLAN's Sovremenny. For now, however, it remains a question of how effective a salvo of 16 subsonic anti-ship missiles will be against a salvo of 8 supersonic anti-ship missiles missiles. It should be borne in mind that during the Gulf War, a few subsonic OSA (P15/P20) based Chinese derivatives such as Silkworms were shot down by Sea Darts fired by Royal Navy (RN) vessels. But then again, these are fairly primitive missiles insofar as their guidance systems are concerned.

The main gun armament on the Sovremenny far outclasses the Delhi. There is redundancy in having two turrets, and the Sovremenny can bring to bear a much greater tonnage of firepower at much greater ranges. For the Delhi, with its single 100mm gun, this can be a disadvantage in combat especially when the gun is damaged. However, some Western navies also have ships with just one main gun such as the RN (and a lot of the IN's thinking is from the RN) although the USN generally has 2 main guns on it's destroyer sized ships. So this comes down to a question of differing tactical philosophies. The other significant difference is in the ASW capabilities. One can safely surmise that the sonar systems on the Delhi class are far superior to anything the Russians have on a Sovremenny. The APSOH hull mounted sonar and the HUMVAAD VDS sonar are based on Western and indigenous technology, which, in combination, with the 2 Sea King ASW helos offer a potent ASW capability.

Of course, the Sea Kings are also configured for ASh role with Sea Eagle AShM. One may also surmise that the Sea King will be used for OTH targeting for the SS-N-25. It is possible that the Chinese would upgrade the sonar systems on the Sovremenny with French systems although the limitation then would still be the single Kamov helicopter which is inferior to the Sea King. In terms of electronics, the Delhi has a Half Plate (MR-755 M2 Fregat) air/surface search radar, and not a Top Plate (MR 760) as reported earlier, while the Sovremenny has a Top Plate. The Top Plate is probably superior to the Half Plate. The Delhi also has the RALW, which is a derivative of the Dutch LW08 air search radar, and once again, one may surmise that this is superior to the Sovremenny.

The Delhi also has a version of the Italian INS-3 electronic warfare suite, which possibly controls the 2 Russian PK-2 chaff launchers. The combat data systems are also different as the Delhi uses a combination of Italian (IPN-10) and Russian equipment in it's combat data system. The Sovremenny possibly has a so-called "2nd captain" automated command & control system that directs the weapons and sensors. It is possible that the Delhi's combat data system is more integrated than a Sovremenny. There are major similarities in the air defense systems and the CIWS and to a lesser extent, in the ASW rocket launchers. Both vessels use the SA-N-17 Grizzly SAM system, and also the AK-630 CIWS with the MR-123 Vympel fire-control radars. There are 2 ASW rocket launcher systems on both ships although the Delhi uses as RBU-6000 system as opposed to a RBU-1000 system in the Sovremenny.

Both use the SA-N-17 (Russian Navy internal designation - 9M38M2) semi-active radar guidance intermediate-range air defense missiles which are based on the SA-N-7 (9M38) missile. A total of 48 missiles are carried in two single arm launchers. It is similar to the U.S. 'Standard' ship-to-air missiles and is considered one of the world's most effective intermediate-range ship-to-air missiles today and has a maximum range of 50 km. This provides good medium range cover, but the latest versions of the 'Standard' missiles have a maximum range in excess of 100km. The single arm launchers possibly restricts the rate of fire in comparison to a vertical launch system. As installed on the Sovremenny Class, this missile system can simultaneously resist six anti-ship missiles and aircraft in all weather conditions. It has strong viability, is simple to operate, and is equipped with two photoelectric sights for use under strong electronic jamming.

This missile system can also track 75 targets simultaneously, aim at 15 of them, and attack six of them using six MR 90 Orekh (NATO Codename: Front Dome) trackers. This is with a Top Plate radar. Presumably, the performance is somewhat degraded with the Half Plate radar on the Delhi. It has an extremely powerful anti-jamming capability and is able to operate reliably within an extremely harsh electronic warfare (EW) environment. This missile system has the capability of intercepting anti-ship missiles wave-hopping at minimum altitude from a distance of 12-3.5 km. This capability is rare in the world and is something that the U.S. 'Standard' ship-to-air missiles still do not have even to this day. The SA-N-17 is 5.76 meters long, 0.4m in diameter, a wingspan of 0.86m and a total weight of about 700 kg. The warhead weighs 70 kg, maximum speed Mach 3, maximum overload 20G, and the system response time is less than 16 seconds. When two missiles are fired at the same time, the fragmentation probability against aircraft is greater than 0.96 and against missiles, greater than 0.86. It has an attack height of 5 - 22,000 meters, a maximum firing range of 38 km, and is capable of intercepting targets flying at a high speed of Mach 2.4.

The improved electronic system gives it a greater anti-jamming capability and shorter system response time compared to the SA-N-17. Future units of the P15 class will no doubt have the indigenous Akash SAM. The AK-630 CIWS is standard on both ships but the location of the mounts are different. On the Delhi, the CIWS is paired amidships in an arrangement that is identical to the Kashin's while on the Sovremenny, the CIWS mounts are located by the bridge and also amidships. This possibly provides a better firing arc coverage than the Delhi although it can be argued that the Delhi can bring to bear a greater concentration of firepower since the two CIWS mounts are so close together. These Russian systems lack a feedback loop (correcting the aim while firing) that Western systems like the Phalanx and Goalkeeper possess with their tracking radars that are integral to the CIWS mounts.

But then again, these are very expensive systems in comparison to Russian systems. As always, weapons specifications boil down to money or a lack thereof and there is a constant trade-off between technology and the budget. In these situations, systems that do an adequate job are preferable to the absolute best in terms of technology. Bear in mind that superior skills are a great equalizer in combat. In conclusion, it is safe to say that the Delhi is a better ASW ship while the Sovremenny would appear to be a better ASuW ship in its current state. Of course, with the introduction of supersonic AShMs on the Delhi, the picture changes very considerably in Delhi's favour.

The reader should bear in mind that both these ships are mid-1980's vintage and do not compare to ships of the Arleigh Burke or Ticonderoga classes. However, the Delhi Class ought to be a match for anything the RN or other European navies have at the present time. Insofar as countering regional threats in the near future, it would appear that the Delhi class adequately meets the IN's tactical requirements. It will be very interesting to follow developments of the Delhi Class as it unfolds. As a postcript, it has recently been reported that the IN is interested in acquiring three Sovremenny. This is, indeed, a most intriguing development!



I found this article at BR very comparing eh?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/A...Article04.html
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Old November 12th, 2004   #2
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

This article is at least 6 years old. The two Sovremenny has already entered service with PLAN in 1999 and 2000. You have any newer articles than this one?
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Old November 12th, 2004   #3
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

From my perspective I'd rate the Sov over the Delhi. The former is a far more balanced and force projection capable platform.

But, as pointed out, the article is too old in its relevance anyway.
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Old November 13th, 2004   #4
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

Well Sovernmy mainly score over delhi clss becasue of it long range anti ship missile , but with the Bhramos in delhi this will be nuturalise .

After that real thing depans on Electronics Warefare , which can't be judge on news paper
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Old November 13th, 2004   #5
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

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Originally Posted by Sq No.15
Well Sovernmy mainly score over delhi clss becasue of it long range anti ship missile , but with the Bhramos in delhi this will be nuturalise .

After that real thing depans on Electronics Warefare , which can't be judge on news paper
No, the Sovs are far more capable across a number of areas. You seem to forget that the Brahmos is fundamentally a shorter ranged Yakhont that is not fitted with the Russian sat guided system - the Russian system has a longer range, has greater bunkerage and is able to be used in any ocean due to it's sat guidance.

The electronic suite on the Sovs is able to be hooked into the Russian Milsat system - the only other militaries that can rival that sat placement are the americans, french and english. The US sat grid is bigger, but that's beside the point in this comparison

The Russian vessels are faster, have a far greater bunkerage capability due to their size and are able to network their weapons systems with other vessels in a fleet. The Delhis cannot.

The Delhis are a good vessel of type - but they are not a direct match against a current generation Sov.

and my knowledge isn't from newspapers.

The Sovs are a fair match up against an Arleigh Burke, Ticonderoga BL2 or a Kongo. The Delhis are not.
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Old November 13th, 2004   #6
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Does the Russian GPS work right now?




Guys the Delhi doesn't have that much Fire Power. The Taruntals practicly have the same amount of fire power. Although it is freakin big the Delhis only weakness seems to be the lack of fire power.
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Old November 13th, 2004   #7
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

Quote:
Originally Posted by gf0012-aust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sq No.15
Well Sovernmy mainly score over delhi clss becasue of it long range anti ship missile , but with the Bhramos in delhi this will be nuturalise .

After that real thing depans on Electronics Warefare , which can't be judge on news paper
No, the Sovs are far more capable across a number of areas. You seem to forget that the Brahmos is fundamentally a shorter ranged Yakhont that is not fitted with the Russian sat guided system - the Russian system has a longer range, has greater bunkerage and is able to be used in any ocean due to it's sat guidance.

The electronic suite on the Sovs is able to be hooked into the Russian Milsat system - the only other militaries that can rival that sat placement are the americans, french and english. The US sat grid is bigger, but that's beside the point in this comparison

The Russian vessels are faster, have a far greater bunkerage capability due to their size and are able to network their weapons systems with other vessels in a fleet. The Delhis cannot.

The Delhis are a good vessel of type - but they are not a direct match against a current generation Sov.

and my knowledge isn't from newspapers.

The Sovs are a fair match up against an Arleigh Burke, Ticonderoga BL2 or a Kongo. The Delhis are not.
My dear friend , Chinese ships armed with Moskit / SS-n-22 Sunburn ASM,

Sunburn SS-N-26/ Moskit Vs Brahmos
Range:
Sunburn 3M80 : 120 Km and 3M80E : 160 Km
Brahmos : 290Km

Speed:
Sunburn 2 mach
Brahmos 3 mach

Weight"
Moskit is 4000 Kg
Brahmos is 3000 Kg

Length:
Moskit 9.4m
Bhramos is 8m

Warhead:
Moskit has 300Kg
Bhramos has 200 Kg

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/weapon/3m80.asp


So you see Indian delhi might be more effective fire power then Chinese Sovs


3M55 Oniks / P-800 Yakhont / P-800 Bolid / SSN-X-26
Range :300 km
Warhead : 200 kg
Speed : 2 to 2.5 ( depends)
Length : 8.9 m
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/m...ow/ss-n-26.htm


So now you seems to frogeten that Barhmos is not a shorter version of Yakhnot , but far more better system, it has stealth capabality and high speed which is not present in any aother missile system in the world, so for now Brahmos is unmatched

Well Using of Milsats for guidance can be only used for improve accuracy which can be achived by using onboard active radar guidance .

I think you need to improve you knowledge little bit more , now , no Offence pls
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Old November 13th, 2004   #8
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

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Originally Posted by Sq No.15
So now you seems to frogeten that Barhmos is not a shorter version of Yakhnot , but far more better system, it has stealth capabality and high speed which is not present in any aother missile system in the world, so for now Brahmos is unmatched

Well Using of Milsats for guidance can be only used for improve accuracy which can be achived by using onboard active radar guidance .

I think you need to improve you knowledge little bit more , now , no Offence pls
You demonstrate an appalling knowledge of your own countries weapon systems - and it's based on the internet apparently.

Russia was only allowed to sell Yakhont to India if it was detuned on range and separated from the Russian guidance system. Russia had to reduce the range as it was an International Treaty limitation in which she is a signatory.

Tell me how you can even begin to compare a guidance system managed by a dedicated military comms grid of 24 satellites compared to an intertial guidance system? Active radar guidance is limited - how powerful do you think the seeker needs to be to be effectively discriminating. Have a look at the radar on any modern jet fighter and you'll maybe begin to understand the issues a little better

As for comparing Delhi to a Sov - I'm sorry but that is laughable - it's a very different capability. They should not be compared. There is no way that a Delhi would be included in a comparison tranche of Sovs, Ticos, AB's and Kongo's. It's a different capability mix completely.

It's a good vessel - but it's no Sov.
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Old November 13th, 2004   #9
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

It's an unfair comparison. The Delhi's where designed as escorts for the IN's carrier(s), not as surface strike or power projection platforms. Hence Delhi's a superior ASW outfit to accompany a similar AAW outfit compared to Sovrs. Also, I would think that Delhi's Israeli developed EW fit is superior. A Sov'r would perform that role poorly which is why the russians have the Udaloy class. They'ld never go one on one anyway. Just like the US and Japanse ships mentioned would not or rarely go one on one with a Sovermenny or vv.
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

Quote:
Originally Posted by tatra
It's an unfair comparison. The Delhi's where designed as escorts for the IN's carrier(s), not as surface strike or power projection platforms. Hence Delhi's a superior ASW outfit to accompany a similar AAW outfit compared to Sovrs. Also, I would think that Delhi's Israeli developed EW fit is superior. A Sov'r would perform that role poorly which is why the russians have the Udaloy class. They'ld never go one on one anyway. Just like the US and Japanse ships mentioned would not or rarely go one on one with a Sovermenny or vv.
Hence my comment that:

Quote:
As for comparing Delhi to a Sov - I'm sorry but that is laughable - it's a very different capability. They should not be compared. There is no way that a Delhi would be included in a comparison tranche of Sovs, Ticos, AB's and Kongo's. It's a different capability mix completely.

It's a good vessel - but it's no Sov.
I would rate the Israeli ASW electronics far higher than the Russian - and from personal experience I would rate it above the French, even though one would assume that the French have a longer historical core capability.

If there is a compunction to compare this to a Sov, then it needs to be specific. A Russian Sov will be far different to a Chinese Sov. It is almost impossible to do a credible comparison based on publicly held information. The Russians don't post absolute capability of their vessels even in journals.

The Russians have a far greater integrated EW package - that in itself is impossible for the IN to replicate as they don't have the basics in place. Sure they might be able to do it on a limited vessel to vessel level - but they do not have it at the holistic organic level. If they did, then they wouldn't be suffering from some of the fleet management and tactical management issues which portions of their prosecution ability suffer from.

That is not to say that it's an irreperable endemic/systemic problem - all these things are technical disconnects in time that can only be resolved by political will and intent. At this point in time, as a blue water autonomous asset, I regard the Russian Sovs as the better balanced unit - by some margin. Bearing that in mind, it's a pointless exercise - they are designed for different tactical profiles with different organic assets as support mechanism.
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Old November 13th, 2004   #11
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What new weapons hardware is the PLAN getting on it'stwo new Sovremenny that they are getting?
Do you think that the Dehli is equal to the 052B DDG (168-169)?
Is the 052B DDG equal to the Sovremenny?
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Old November 14th, 2004   #12
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The Chinese aren't realising no numbers so we can't have a fair comparison. Just because it looks like a Klingon Dystroyer doesn't mean it can take a Delhi Class.

one more question the 3S-90 missile launcher can only launch one sytil until reload? how long to reload?

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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

Well , Well com compairing Chinese Sovs armed with Moskit with Delhi class armed with Bhramos, I am not compairing Russian Sovs.

Indeed IN , don't want to guidance system on board in their missile becasue India don't have Milsat and using forigen sat system means that enemy can anytime misguide the missile off target if it want to.

Let take , if Brahmos uses GPS to guide itself then , if US want it can misguide the target position in he ven of hostility or Russian can if they want.

So to be on safter side and u have complete control of it , India didn't installed any sat directed naigation.

When Galileo was in place and india have Sercet codes of it then India will use Sat guidance in Barhmos also , do doubt about it.

For security reasons India didn't installed sat guidance.
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Re: Dehli Class vs Sovernmey

i think it would be better to compare the p15a bangalore class with type 54c class. bangalore is the larger ,stealthier and more advanced version of the delhi class.it is optimised around the brahmos missile .brahmos can be used with the russian kondor-e satellite this facility i think is available with the russian variant of the brahmos and the yahkont missile .india however rejected it .india is currently developing a spy satellite whose technology was tested with the tes satellite.israel has also offered india the development of the super barak missile with india(claimed by israel to be comparable to the sm3 missile it has a range of 70+kms).drdo i9s reported to be considering favourably to this offer .i dont think akash will be inducted on any future indian warship projects(p15a,p17a )it may be used for refit on older warships.anyway iam sure we will know something for definite when the israeli ministerial level team visits india next week.p17a should be compared to the chinese stealth frigate.
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Old November 14th, 2004   #15
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BTW is it possible to make a frigate carry a ballistic missile like the Prithvi onboard as a weapon? If so how many could be fitted on it an could it be used against other ships?

one more question the 3S-90 missile launcher can only launch one sytil until reload? how long to reload?

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