Comparing PLAN to Indian Navy

[dabrownguy]

Okay this a hypothictical scienerio. For some pathetic and unrealsonable reason the IN dicides to meed the PLAN. How will the Plan deal with IN's carrier or future carriers and how will the Indian navy deal with the sovernmeys and the "red" aegis?:coffee

PLAN has about 3 tims as much tonnage correct? Will PLAN dystroy the entire IN fleets? will the training and strategy by in favour of IN as they we're trained by the British?

 

[aaaditya]

dont know about the british but indian navy also trained with russians and trains on a regular basis with the us,singapore and the gulf states.indian navy is highly active even during peacetime.however we have to take into consideration where the contact takes place plan has an advantage on their turf and the indians on their turf.the main drawback in either case would be the distance from the homebase.india's advantage in carriers are negated by plan's nukes.india used its carrier rather defensively during the 1972 war with pakistan(blockade of east bengal and hitting the pakistani assets in east bengal backed with overwhelming naval superiority).i hope india has changed that attitude.the carrier will be highly useful in indian territorial waters backed by the airforce assets but once in south china sea it will be a big disadvantage.indians train regularly with the western navies(the most recent being with the french where and the us where their nuke subs were also involved)so this should stand indian navy in good stead.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

aaaditya - nukes won't be a factor. India has the bomb now, so it would be a conventional war. In any case, we're talking about a naval confrontation.

If we're going to consider this, we'll have to say that neither side can have aircover from land. It has to be supplied by their own ships.

India does have an aircraft carrier but it's just HMS Hermes - it has about, what, 12 Harriers (+ Sea Kings)? They might have an impact but equally, we're not talking about much punch. The PLAN's air-defence screen might be able to take what they could throw at their taskforce.

Both sides are upgrading their surface and submarine forces. To be honest I don't know enough about either to proclaim one the better force.

 

[aaaditya]

well buddy you would realise that china as of now doesnt have any carrier.and if we take a scenario of 2010+then india will most likely have two carriers both nearly double to the viraats air complement.plaf may come into action if india enters chinese territorial waters ,but india is not adventurous enough.on the othjer hand can the same be said about plan?however plan will be under tremendous disadvantage if it enters india's territorial waters.by nukes i reffered to nuclear submarines india doesnt have them as of now.however over a period of time(thanks to joint excercises with france and usa) india would have definitely improved its anti submarine warfare capability.

 

[dabrownguy]

If i'm correct at the current stage the Viraat carriers 16 harriers due to be upgraded with the derby. but why would the IN want to upgrade the Harreirs if the will be thrown away in 5 years?

 

[aaaditya]

one of the reasons why an aircraft is upgraded is to keep it in service for some more years.harrier is a great aircraft in its own right(during the falklands war it shot down several argentine mirage3's.it has even impressed the iaf during joint excercises with the navy.the harrier derby combination is quite good a highly manouverabnle aircraft and a top class missile backed by a top class radar (it will have bvr capability) more than enough to take on any combat aircraft in the region.even if the carrier is retired it can be still operated from land bases for coastal defence role and with in flight refuelling can provide longer range cover for the naval assets.india originally wanted to upgrade it to the british fa2 standard but that proved to be prohibitively expensive hence india settled for the current upgrade.i beleive india should acquire a large number of second hand harriers from uk as they are retired and upgraded with derby and elm-2032 an effective and affordable solution to defence of naval assets and for coastal defence particularly when backed with awacs.the current upgrade shall ensure that the harrier shall remain in service till atleast the n-lca comes around(atleast a good 10-15 years).:

 

[ajay_ijn]

Both are nearly equal in quality but PLAN is very much bigger than IN.

One Scenario would be if PLAN Attacks IN in Bay of Bengal the PLAN is sure to lose and if IN Attacks PLAN in South China Sea then Indian Navy is to lose.

Both Navies cannot have a Sustained and Powerful Action far away from their home.

It would be very interesting to see if they meet in a neutral zone or centre of ocean far away from both the countries coast.

If IN has Carrier then PLAN also has SSN (but noisy) which IN does not have.

Presently the Sunburn is best inservice cruise missile in Asian navies , but it is going to change soon with Brahmos in service.

Su-30MKI armed with Brahmos Missile will be a Powerful Anti-Shipping Platform in the Asia.

 

[XEROX]

Interesting thread, the Chinese navy seems to be on a fleet building mission, as well as the Indian navy
China may have the more tonnage but its not all advanced, they have a lot of crap to, and as for their nuke boats, well lets hope the crew don’t die from nuclear radiation

On the positive outlook they have a very potent form of attack in the Moskits, future redbird missile, and its going to be interesting when the red-agesis comes into play

China are not really a “blue water†navy as of yet, how are they going to project power if they haven’t even got an aircraft carrier


As for the Indian navy, well it’s quite superior in its anti-submarine warfare training, the navies own fleet building consist of the “stealthy†P-17 and the highly armed P-15A,

what we need to consider about the Indian navy is what they have procured or about to procure, the 40,000 tonne Admiral Gorshkov (complimented with 16 MiG-29s), possible P3-Orions from the US and possible French conventional scorpion submarines, and with fingers crossed the possible lease of the Russian nuke boats, Akula 2, this will be quite formidable, oh yeah don’t forget the ATV project which is slated for 2007

[font=&quot] I would just about class the Indian navy as “Blue Water capable, but its still got a lot to do to catch up with the likes of the Japanese etc

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Su-30MKI armed with Brahmos Missile will be a Powerful Anti-Shipping Platform in the Asia

Whats happening with the Russian TU-22M3, are we getting them



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[dabrownguy]

Can some on confirm if the IN is going to get the Tu-142 Bears upgraded and make them PJ-10 capable?

 

[aaaditya]

the tu's have been upgraded though they have not yet acquired the air launched brahmos(still in development). check www.bharat-rakshak.com,also there have been reports in indian media that along with the scorpenes india will also acquire the russian amur1650 subs licence built in india by larsen and toubro engineering and kirloskar marine engines at haldia.(lets hope this materialises).india should have two types of subs in its navy(currently it has three types the kilos,thye foxtrots and the hdw subs).i beleive the scorpene is an excellent platform for intelligence gathering whereas tha amurs are very good for the sea denial and if the two are use in combination with each complementing the other then it will be deadly india wants to construct as many as 30 subs over a period of 30 years.by the way another kilo is being sent for upgrade(to be fitted with the klub missiles).

 

[aaaditya]

by the guys is it true that china has exported two scientific survey ships to india the is an article in the br forum(indian navy news folder) with pictures but the content is in chinese can someone please confirm it.

 

[A Khan]

After doing a bit of searching on the internet, i have made the following list of the assets in two navies: (only those in active service have been included, since i'm no expert my numbers might not be 100 % accurate, any corrections will be appreciated)


PLAN vessels

Submarines:

40 Type 035 Ming class and older Type 033 Romeo class diesel submarines
4 Russian-made Kilo class
5 indigenous Type 039 Song class diesel submarines
5 Type 091 Han class nuclear attack submarine (SSN)
1 Type 092 Xia class nuclear missile submarine (SSBN)

Total: 54 subs



Destroyers:

1 Type 052C (Lanzhou class
1 Type 052B (Guangzhou class)
2 Sovremenny class
1 Type 051B (NATO codename: Luhai class)
2 Type 052 (NATO codename: Luhu class)
16 Luda class destroyers (some modernised, others mostly old tech)
Total: 23



Frigates:

4Type 053H2G/Jangwei class
10 Type 053H3/Jangwei-II class
23 Jianghu-class (I+II+III, most old ships)
Total: 37



INDIAN NAVY

Submarines:

2 Vela (Foxtrot) Class
4 Shishumer Class
10 (Kilo) Sindhogush
Total: 16



Air craft carriers
Viraat



Destroyers:
3 Delhi Class
5 Rajput Class
Total: 8



Frigates:

3 Godavari class
3 Talwar class
2 Brahmaputra class
1 Petya class
5 Nilgiri (leander) Class
Total: 14


So my conclusion is that the Indian navy has fewer vessels, but they are mostly "high-tech", when PLAN has a lot more vessels, where some are "high-tech" and others old junk to be retired in the very near future. I think in sheer numbers the PLAN is superior, and in "high-tech" vessels, PLAN has built a large number in the recent years, so even if the old ones, such as the romeo class type 33 subs, some of the Luda class destroyers and Jianghu frigates are excluded, still the PLAN should be able to counter the IN.


We have heard alot about the IN's excellent training record with foreign navies, but does anyone know anything about the PLAN and its training with foreign navies? i cant remember reading about it anywhere, only when the had training exercises with the Pakistani navy and then with IN.

 

[doggychow14]

1 Type 052C (Lanzhou class
1 Type 052B (Guangzhou class)

40 Type 035 Ming class and older Type 033 Romeo class diesel submarines
4 Russian-made Kilo class
5 indigenous Type 039 Song class diesel submarines
5 Type 091 Han class nuclear attack submarine (SSN)
1 Type 092 Xia class nuclear missile submarine (SSBN)
4Type 053H2G/Jangwei class
10 Type 053H3/Jangwei-II class
23 Jianghu-class (I+II+III, most old ships)
Total: 37

Actually its 2 052C, 2 052B.. Also the 093/094 are said to be finished and are undergoing sea trials. Also another 2 sovs and 6 kilos are on the way. Also don't froget about the 2 Yuans. Also i think the Jiangnan shipyard is prepping on another 2 052Cs (Some people think its a further upgraded 052D). There are photos of a 051C out now though there is speculation that its just a 051B.. And for frigates there are 2 054s and 054A when the vls HQ-16 is ready. i think recently Russia has started to market the tu-22m3 to China. A chinese aircraft carrier has been debated on many forums however at the present it doesn't look like China is pursueing one. The simple fact is that both these navies are modernizing .

 

[aaaditya]

well india plans to induct 6 p 15a bangalore destroyers incorporating stealth and other features.the lead ship will be launched this year ,three p17 vessels are under construction out of 10 projected ,the lead ship to be comissioned this year.8 project28 corvettes(asw with 2000+tons displacement)with an option for four more.6 lst(l) large amphibious crafts.8 mcmvs(with an option for 4 more to be built by grse),gorshkov aircraft carrier , 1 ads,plus the scorpenes.well things look quite rosy for indian navy.

 

[whiteeagle]

it is no meaning to discuss. some other factors such as military industry,economics and tech etc should be included.

 

[A Khan]

Doggychow and aaaditya: as i mentioned in my post, ONLY THOSE IN ACTIVE SERVICE have been included. my sources for the indian navy has been Bharat-rakshak, and for the PLAN, i had sinodefence, and others.

and yes i do know that both navies have a lot of vessels under construction and under development, so both will look very different in 10 years time, but they numbers i have posted are the ones currently in service. if they are wrong then please let me know, and i will change it.

 

[dabrownguy]

:coffee I started my own list.
PLAN
Surface fleet.
2 052C missile dystroyers with Phassed Array Radar. Primirly for airdefence.
2 052B Missile Destroyer.
2 Sovernmeys
1 O51B
2 052
6 051G
15 051 (crap ships)
2 054
14 053H
6 053
3 053H2
i'm not gonna incalude junk so Jianghu class is out of da list.
Total 55
Sub (i'm not going to inculde 1st gen nuke subs or attack subs)
2 Yaun
8 Kilo
Total 10


Indian Navy
1 Carrier
3 type 15
5 Rajput (this is the one apprantly that launched the Barhmos)
3 Type 16
3 Talwars
3 Type 16A
3 Type 25
3 Type 25A
13 Veer
(i'm not inculadin the junk ships.)
Total 36
Sub
10 kilos (upgraded with klub N) can strike surface
4 HDW 209

Wow the IN is pretty out numbered!
:coffee

 

[Number1azn365]

Aren't the 039's/Songs considered to still be a good sub since the PLAN are still building them? What about the FAC that China created that will house maybe 8 missiles?

 

[dabrownguy]

I'm pretty confident that the songs are first generation. Loud and annoying.

 

[corsair7772]

I belive the FACs Number 1 is talking about are the Houjian Heavy Missile FACs which carry 5 SSMs not 8.

Id rate the modernized Songs as comparable to the Agostas. But the Yuans seem exceptionally modern. Not enough is known about the latter to form a good opinion but i personally hope it would match a Scorpene rather than a Kilo.

There are a lot of Aircraft carriers reaching the end of their service lives or simply being used to little extent which the Indians could get their hands on. It would be something if the IN had the followin major warships (Aircraft carriers and Heli carriers) by 2015.

1 Admiral Gorshkov AC
1 Indian Aircraft carrier
1 Clemencau AC
1 Kunetov AC

1 Viraat Heli C
1 French HC
1 Moskva Hc

Although i have my doubts about the Kuznetov, it is reasonable to assume that Russia may sell the Carrier to India at a huge profit. The helicopter carriers could give the indians a prized ASW or Amphibous Assault ability. These ships would require modernisation of different extents but by the end of it, there would be no doubt left of the INs capabilities, especially since the IN has several Surface Warships it could tie down defending them for example:

5 Delhis Dests
7 Kashins Dests
2~4 Soveirnmies/Udaloys?
6 Krivak Frigates

+Fleet Submarines

Ofcourse with the continued building of more Surface vessels, and with the supposition that the IN may form two Task Forces with 2 carriers each, id say 8 Destroyer/Frigates fo one task force (16 total) would be enough for the job in combination with the Carriers aircraft and the Fleet Submarines. This could leave few modern ships for escort of merchant ships but whoever said warship programs wrap up in a few years?