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Wall83 December 4th, 2010 09:28 PM

Chinese Navy News and Discussion
 
China are once again deploying new resources to its navy.
The last month 1 large amphibius transport landing dock (Type-071) has been launched. 2 possible 4 new Type-052C air defence destroyers are under construction with 2 ready to be launched.
The modern Type-054A missile frigate are in serial production with atleast 12 ships ready by the end of 2010. Then add the rumors about a new large corvette class (Type-056) and that the work on the aircraft carrier Varyag has been speeded up latley.

Are we seing the result of the Blue navy plan set in the early 2000 now?

tphuang December 5th, 2010 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall83 (Post 207815)
China are once again deploying new resources to its navy.
The last month 1 large amphibius transport landing dock (Type-071) has been launched. 2 possible 4 new Type-052C air defence destroyers are under construction with 2 ready to be launched.
The modern Type-054A missile frigate are in serial production with atleast 12 ships ready by the end of 2010. Then add the rumors about a new large corvette class (Type-056) and that the work on the aircraft carrier Varyag has been speeded up latley.

Are we seing the result of the Blue navy plan set in the early 2000 now?

they took a couple of years off in the shipbuilding program. They just restarted again, that's all. What PLAN does is building one or two prototypes, then wait until the technology on it matures before starting mass production. In the case of 052C and 071, they are finally ready for mass production, that's why you are seeing so many new ones coming out now.

Pathfinder-X December 6th, 2010 04:27 AM

The problem with PLAN seems to be they have not yet developed the suitable turbine technology for ship propulsion. The first two 052C were commissioned into service in 2006, and it took them until this year to complete the 3rd ship. This might change soon since they managed to license produce Ukranian GT25000 and design a domestic QC-280.

Wall83 December 6th, 2010 07:41 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 4364

The Varyag is comming along. This lady is NOT going to be a Casino, thats for sure. Armanent is getting installed, Sensors and masts also.

weasel1962 December 7th, 2010 09:24 PM

Re:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall83 (Post 207815)
China are once again deploying new resources to its navy.
The last month 1 large amphibius transport landing dock (Type-071) has been launched. 2 possible 4 new Type-052C air defence destroyers are under construction with 2 ready to be launched.
The modern Type-054A missile frigate are in serial production with atleast 12 ships ready by the end of 2010. Then add the rumors about a new large corvette class (Type-056) and that the work on the aircraft carrier Varyag has been speeded up latley.

Are we seing the result of the Blue navy plan set in the early 2000 now?

This is only what's been spotted at the usual yards. Actual construction could be higher.

Sampanviking December 8th, 2010 04:35 AM

Do bear in mind that there are something in the order of 50 type 53 Frigates of numerous variants due; if not long overdue for retirement.

Nobody is expecting a one for one replacement rate, so that the new PLAN may be modern, but it is likely to be smaller than its current values.

Wall83 December 8th, 2010 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManilaBoy (Post 207964)
AWESOME looking naval ship! When will it be commision to service...

No one knows for sure. It might be ready for trials late next year.

Wall83 December 8th, 2010 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sampanviking (Post 207981)
Do bear in mind that there are something in the order of 50 type 53 Frigates of numerous variants due; if not long overdue for retirement.

Nobody is expecting a one for one replacement rate, so that the new PLAN may be modern, but it is likely to be smaller than its current values.

True, however one 054A frigate must be atleast three times as powerfull as one of the early 053 frigats.

And the last 053 frigates, the Jiangwei I-II class, was commisioned in the late 90s early 00s so they are modern enough to continue to serve for some years to come.

weasel1962 December 8th, 2010 06:43 AM

Re:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall83 (Post 207993)
True, however one 054A frigate must be atleast three times as powerfull as one of the early 053 frigats.

And the last 053 frigates, the Jiangwei I-II class, was commisioned in the late 90s early 00s so they are modern enough to continue to serve for some years to come.

Consider that the 022s with its 8 YJs have same or better SSM capability as the newer Jianghus, faster and 10-15 times less crew.

For FFGs, if one considers the number of Jiangweis and Jiangkais together, its almost 30 identified already or 60% of Jianghu numbers. Counting another 20+ Jianghus still in operation, there's no drop in numbers. Add in new 056s which will likely be able to replace existing Jianghu roles, I wouldn't be surprised if numbers do match or exceed prior numbers.

The 054As have better capabilities in all fields, ASW/AAW/SSMs than the 051 Ludas (DDGs) and they are also bigger.

CVs, DDGs (after Ludas), LPD are areas that China will exceed its past inventories or are new areas. Its significant fleet expansion since the 90s.

Projected sub numbers (~60-90+ based on construction of 2-3 a year for a 30 yr life) aren't very far from prior romeo numbers (84).

One significant area where numbers will decline from the 80s are FAC where PLAN used to operate hundreds of shanghais, huchuans etc. Having said that, at the rate 022s are being churned out (since Apr 2004 ), difficult to say where numbers will end and that will at least match or exceed FAC(M) numbers. Production rates already appear to be matching (DOD annual china report stated 60 over ~6 yrs) or exceeding (other sources 80-100+ over the same period) prior Huangfeng rates of ~10 a year.

Wall83 December 8th, 2010 08:33 AM

Its uncertan how many Type 054 frigates that is going to be built. When the production started the preseumed end number was 12. Well this number has now been reached and the production continues.
I wouldnt be suprised if the production dont stops until 20 are built.

I think also the destroyer production will now encrease. The 52Cs are now tested and valuated and they are ready for serial production. We probably will have 8-10 of them around by 2015. Then its the question of the rumerd future type 052D destroyer.

kato December 8th, 2010 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weasel1962 (Post 207994)
10-15 times less crew.

Umm, that would be rather... automated. 10-15 men less crew sounds about right tho.

rip December 8th, 2010 05:43 PM

I think a more interesting question is not the type or number of ships that the Chinese have or are building but the type, quality and experience of the personal in a quickly expanding blue water Navy. It is changing from a costal defense force (more like a part of the army) to a true blue water would ranging Navy. As a general rule you can build an Army is a few years if you have the money, the equipment, and a few professionals to build it around. You can likewise build a modern Air Force in a decade or so with the same resources, but unless you have a strong, long, and deep maritime tradition behind you, it usually takes forty years to build, a state of the art, professional blue water Navy.

I am not disrespecting the Chinese now, they are a competent sort as we all know but it takes a while for the salt to sink deep into the institutional veins of a world ranging, blue water Navy and that just takes time. The time to see, experience, and deal with all that the ocean, the vastly different peoplies that seround it, and above all its remarkable weather, with its various challenges and particularities that just don’t happenvery very often to be easily learned and internalized. Andwhich are never seen on land but have often determined the results of naval actionsThroughout history. They can get all the technology right, and build enough ships but still fail as an effective sea power. What do you think? Is it all about weapons and numbers?

dingyibvs December 9th, 2010 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kato (Post 208007)
Umm, that would be rather... automated. 10-15 men less crew sounds about right tho.

No, 10-15 times less is closer, they're very different boats. The 022 is a FAC with a crew of ~10 ppl, while the Jianghu's(053) are light frigates with a crew of closer to 100. The 022 and the late variants of the 053 do carry the same number of SSM's though.

weasel1962 December 9th, 2010 01:34 AM

Re:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rip (Post 208018)
I think a more interesting question is not the type or number of ships that the Chinese have or are building but the type, quality and experience of the personal in a quickly expanding blue water Navy. It is changing from a costal defense force (more like a part of the army) to a true blue water would ranging Navy. As a general rule you can build an Army is a few years if you have the money, the equipment, and a few professionals to build it around. You can likewise build a modern Air Force in a decade or so with the same resources, but unless you have a strong, long, and deep maritime tradition behind you, it usually takes forty years to build, a state of the art, professional blue water Navy.

I am not disrespecting the Chinese now, they are a competent sort as we all know but it takes a while for the salt to sink deep into the institutional veins of a world ranging, blue water Navy and that just takes time. The time to see, experience, and deal with all that the ocean, the vastly different peoplies that seround it, and above all its remarkable weather, with its various challenges and particularities that just don’t happenvery very often to be easily learned and internalized. Andwhich are never seen on land but have often determined the results of naval actionsThroughout history. They can get all the technology right, and build enough ships but still fail as an effective sea power. What do you think? Is it all about weapons and numbers?

History is no gauge. Japan defeated Russia in the Battle of Tsushima with no precedence before that. And then repeated the feat in the early years of WW2 until Midway. Brittania ruled the waves until then but history didn't prevent its decline. That's the benefit of technology.

China has had a modern navy since the 50s and was the 3rd largest navy in the 80s. Today its probably the 2nd largest and working itself upwards.

The 2009 ONI report on China's navy is a good starting source.
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/oni/pla-navy.pdf

The problem of perception is the opposition. Comparison against the best, largest and most modern ie US navy, tends to make the other party "less effective". No doubts there.

It will take an investment level far higher than current before China catches up to the US navy.

Wall83 December 9th, 2010 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weasel1962 (Post 208050)
China has had a modern navy since the 50s and was the 3rd largest navy in the 80s. Today its probably the 2nd largest and working itself upwards.

Modern navy? I comparesment to what...the North Korean navy? Except for the latest decade chinas navy has been more about quantity then quality. Up to the late 90s the most modern ships in the PLAN was copied missile destroyers of old Soviet designs.


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