Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Navy & Maritime

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


Brazilian Naval Strength

This is a discussion on Brazilian Naval Strength within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Big-E Are you forgetting how much they paid for that rust bucket? My SuperHornet is worth more ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 3.00 average.
Old September 3rd, 2006   #31
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
contedicavour's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Paris/Geneva (but I'm Italian)
Posts: 2,901
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-E
Are you forgetting how much they paid for that rust bucket? My SuperHornet is worth more than that ship and her entire airwing. Her escorts are worth more than she is. Considering her cost I think having a wing of A-4s and some S-2s for under $100 million requires 0 protection that isn't on the ship already. If the A-4s can carry exocet then they don't need Super-Etendards... if they're going to spend that much money they might as well get Rafales. The only reason Brazil has a carrier is for prestige, they never planned to really use it.
I agree with you that the carrier is for prestige... but (i) A4s can't carry Exocets (all they have is a navigation radar !) and (ii) the carrier was handed over for not much, but imagine how much it costs to pay the salaries of the 1,000+ crew, plus maintenance of systems built in the late '50s...
If the carrier is attacked, Brazil can't afford to lose her (because of the 1,000+ crew) hence the need to protect her better with better jets and escorts.

cheers
contedicavour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2006   #32
Banned Member
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,045
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by contedicavour
I agree with you that the carrier is for prestige... but (i) A4s can't carry Exocets (all they have is a navigation radar !) and (ii) the carrier was handed over for not much, but imagine how much it costs to pay the salaries of the 1,000+ crew, plus maintenance of systems built in the late '50s...
If the carrier is attacked, Brazil can't afford to lose her (because of the 1,000+ crew) hence the need to protect her better with better jets and escorts.

cheers
I think they need to moth ball her and just use the deck for practice.
Big-E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2006   #33
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
contedicavour's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Paris/Geneva (but I'm Italian)
Posts: 2,901
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-E
I think they need to moth ball her and just use the deck for practice.
Or join forces with Argentina and make it pay part of the costs of maintaining the ship. Argentina could use her remaining Super Etendards from the Foch/Sao Paulo.

I think the ship could be useful if it served as a sort of LPH with the Sea Kings and Cougars of its Navy & Marine Corps.

cheers
contedicavour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2006   #34
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,628
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by contedicavour
Or join forces with Argentina and make it pay part of the costs of maintaining the ship. Argentina could use her remaining Super Etendards from the Foch/Sao Paulo.

I think the ship could be useful if it served as a sort of LPH with the Sea Kings and Cougars of its Navy & Marine Corps.

cheers
I seem to remember reading something about the Argentinean navy maintaining its carrier landing skills by practicing on Sao Paulo. Anyone know anything?

If she was to function as an LPH, that presupposes an amphibious assault. In that case, the A-4s might be useful, depending on the opposition, so she might be even more valuable as a carrier. Brazil has, AFAIK, a few old ex-US LSDs/LSTs. Ah yes - https://www.mar.mil.br/menu_h/navios/menu_navios.htm
3 of 'em.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2006   #35
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 156
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by swerve
I seem to remember reading something about the Argentinean navy maintaining its carrier landing skills by practicing on Sao Paulo. Anyone know anything?
Actually the Argentine navy has been maintained doing that since his aircraft carrier "Veinticinco de Mayo" was declared inoperative in the last 80s. It's important recall that the Brazilian navy in spite of having the Minas Gerais, they lacked of fixed wing naval aviation during the 90s until the arrival of the A-4 Skyhawk from Kuwait (IIRC in 1998). It was and is now, very common to observe Argentine aircrafts in the Sao Paulo as was before in the Minas Gerais and of course during the annual celebration of the joint exercises ARAEX and TEMPEREX.

The Argentine Super Etendard (3-A-214) ready to take off from the Sao Paulo during the exercises ARAEX 02.
http://www.defesanet.com.br/noticia/...retendard1.jpg

The Argentine Super Etendard (3-A-213) landing. http://www.defesanet.com.br/noticia/...eretendard.jpg

Two S-2T Tracker of the Argentine Navy over the flight deck of the CV Sao Paulo. http://saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorba...con%20S-2T.jpg

Photo of the S-2T Tracker (2-AS-23) embarked upon the Sao Paulo. http://saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorba...s/S2%20ARA.jpg

Last edited by Gladius; September 4th, 2006 at 10:43 AM.
Gladius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2006   #36
Defense Aficionado
Major General
Sea Toby's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,473
Threads:
If Brazil is going to use the carrier as a landing ship, they would be better off with a couple of used Anchorage class LPDs. They are better amphibious ships with smaller crews. Since most of the Latin American nations are neutral concerning the rest of the world, an aircraft carrier in their fleets isn't necessary. Naval aircraft can be used from land bases in the defence of these nations EEZs and sea lanes.
Sea Toby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2006   #37
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
tatra's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 825
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Toby
If Brazil is going to use the carrier as a landing ship, they would be better off with a couple of used Anchorage class LPDs. They are better amphibious ships with smaller crews. Since most of the Latin American nations are neutral concerning the rest of the world, an aircraft carrier in their fleets isn't necessary. Naval aircraft can be used from land bases in the defence of these nations EEZs and sea lanes.
Looked at a map of Brazil lately? Lots of landmass, mostly rainforrest, not a whole lot of airbases. Nonetheless, long coast line and it has always straddled key shipping routes from the America's to Africa and Europe. If any country in South America could use and has use for a carries, I would think it was Brazil.
________________
Trans corpus mortuum (and I mean that!)
tatra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2006   #38
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
contedicavour's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Paris/Geneva (but I'm Italian)
Posts: 2,901
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tatra
Looked at a map of Brazil lately? Lots of landmass, mostly rainforrest, not a whole lot of airbases. Nonetheless, long coast line and it has always straddled key shipping routes from the America's to Africa and Europe. If any country in South America could use and has use for a carries, I would think it was Brazil.
Well Brazil has a choice... either build airstrips for P3 Orions and install coastal radars and use frigates, corvettes and OPVs for patrol, or rely more entirely on the navy and beef it up with mini-carriers of the late "sea control ship" concept... though it would be more reasonable to have big OPVs with a couple of helos on each.

cheers
contedicavour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2006   #39
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
tatra's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 825
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by contedicavour
Well Brazil has a choice... either build airstrips for P3 Orions and install coastal radars and use frigates, corvettes and OPVs for patrol, or rely more entirely on the navy and beef it up with mini-carriers of the late "sea control ship" concept... though it would be more reasonable to have big OPVs with a couple of helos on each.

cheers
They don't need a fleet of SCS, a single carrier will do just fine. They can put it where it is needed most i.e. out in the ocean expanse, direction africa, not along the coast.

Nothing wrong with the carrier they currently have, considering what planes they have to put on it. Once it gets too old, they can always strike a deal with India for the production of a new light carrier. No pressing need to get involved with suppliers from Europe, US or Russia.
________________
Trans corpus mortuum (and I mean that!)
tatra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2006   #40
Banned Member
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,045
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tatra
They don't need a fleet of SCS, a single carrier will do just fine. They can put it where it is needed most i.e. out in the ocean expanse, direction africa, not along the coast.

Nothing wrong with the carrier they currently have, considering what planes they have to put on it. Once it gets too old, they can always strike a deal with India for the production of a new light carrier. No pressing need to get involved with suppliers from Europe, US or Russia.
What carrier do they currently have? The Veintecinco De Mayo was scrapped 7 years ago. Russia can't build carriers anymore since they lost Ukraine. India doesn't have enough steel to build Argentina a carrier, they barely have enough for their own plans.
Big-E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2006   #41
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,628
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-E
What carrier do they currently have? The Veintecinco De Mayo was scrapped 7 years ago. Russia can't build carriers anymore since they lost Ukraine. India doesn't have enough steel to build Argentina a carrier, they barely have enough for their own plans.
Brazil! Not Argentina. Wrong thread.

What's Indias steel problem? A few tens of thousands of tons are hardly significant among tens of millions (21 million tons in the first 6 months of this year, & growing very fast). If their plate mills are overburdened,
importing some steel plate is possible. Everyone trades steel: e.g. China exported 20 million tons & imported 9 million in the first half of the year.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2006   #42
Banned Member
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,045
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by swerve
Brazil! Not Argentina. Wrong thread.

What's Indias steel problem? A few tens of thousands of tons are hardly significant among tens of millions (21 million tons in the first 6 months of this year, & growing very fast). If their plate mills are overburdened,
importing some steel plate is possible. Everyone trades steel: e.g. China exported 20 million tons & imported 9 million in the first half of the year.
Brazil, I could have sworn this was the Argie carrier thread...oops.

It's not that there isn't steel, it's that there isn't enough quality steel needed in the use of carriers or other large ships. Russia was their previous source but they cut them off so they had to develop their own domestic source, it is still in it's infancy and their ADS, LPDs and ATVs are going to take everything their mills can pull out of it.
Big-E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2006   #43
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,628
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-E
Brazil, I could have sworn this was the Argie carrier thread...oops.

It's not that there isn't steel, it's that there isn't enough quality steel needed in the use of carriers or other large ships. Russia was their previous source but they cut them off so they had to develop their own domestic source, it is still in it's infancy and their ADS, LPDs and ATVs are going to take everything their mills can pull out of it.
I think they should be able to import it, if necessary. Just a question of price. Japanese mills will sell to anyone who pays, & have no difficulty producing hgh quality steel, China is now exporting steel plate for large ships to South Korea (that must be on price), etc. And in any case, this hypothetical possibility is far in the future. Brazil isn't in a hurry to replace Sao Paulo. Who knows what Indian production will be then? They're increasing production of all sorts of steel very fast.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2006   #44
Defense Enthusiast
Lieutenant
kams's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 647
Threads:
Yes India did face shortage of steel (kind required to build ships) a year back. Heard that they have resolved it though (atleast for ADS). By the way ADS is now called IAC (Indigenous Aircraft Carrier) .
kams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2006   #45
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
contedicavour's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Paris/Geneva (but I'm Italian)
Posts: 2,901
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tatra
They don't need a fleet of SCS, a single carrier will do just fine. They can put it where it is needed most i.e. out in the ocean expanse, direction africa, not along the coast.

Nothing wrong with the carrier they currently have, considering what planes they have to put on it. Once it gets too old, they can always strike a deal with India for the production of a new light carrier. No pressing need to get involved with suppliers from Europe, US or Russia.
Well the availability of a single 40+ years-old carrier must be < 6 months a year. That's why I 'd have more in mind a small fleet of 2-3 small 150-metre helicopter carriers with continuous flight deck. With half a dozen heavy helos for ASW and ASUW, they would be very good patrol assets.

cheers
contedicavour is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:52 PM.