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Brazilian Naval Strength

This is a discussion on Brazilian Naval Strength within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; contedicavour; the missiles Sea Wolf VLS that fitted in the type 23 they have a maximum range of 10 km, ...


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Old August 8th, 2006   #16
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contedicavour;
the missiles Sea Wolf VLS that fitted in the type 23 they have a maximum range of 10 km, due to the employment of a booster against the 6 kms of the of system launched from six-tube launchers in the type 22 Brazilians, maintaining the number maximum of two missiles guided at the same time in the three types of ships (type 23 , type 22 batch 1 and Niteroi class) by the 2 radars of having guided GEC-Marconi Type 911 tracker in the ships of british construction and the same thing in the Niteroi with the 2 RTN-30X.
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Old August 8th, 2006   #17
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Originally Posted by murene
contedicavour;
the missiles Sea Wolf VLS that fitted in the type 23 they have a maximum range of 10 km, due to the employment of a booster against the 6 kms of the of system launched from six-tube launchers in the type 22 Brazilians, maintaining the number maximum of two missiles guided at the same time in the three types of ships (type 23 , type 22 batch 1 and Niteroi class) by the 2 radars of having guided GEC-Marconi Type 911 tracker in the ships of british construction and the same thing in the Niteroi with the 2 RTN-30X.
On the range we must have different sources : Jane's claims that the VLS Sea Wolf has a range of 6km, vs 5km in the non-VLS version on the Broadswords batches 2 and 3, and vs 4km in the non-VLS version on the Broadsword batch 1 (Brazil's).
Anyway, 6 or 10, it is massively inferior to Aspide NG's 21km.
When an incoming missile arrives 1000km/h (for example) those extra 11km would leave you 40 seconds to do something about it.

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Old August 31st, 2006   #18
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brazil's real problem is that i dont think they could defend thier carrier from a determined air&AShM attack. the first thing they need to do is buy some super entendards(18-24 if they can afford it) and buy land-based mpas.
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Old September 1st, 2006   #19
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brazil's real problem is that i dont think they could defend thier carrier from a determined air&AShM attack. the first thing they need to do is buy some super entendards(18-24 if they can afford it) and buy land-based mpas.
Why is everyone trying to make Brazil into a second tier naval power? The only major nation in their sphere of influence is the US and it would be foolish to even bother expanding to anything near our capabilities. Look at what Brazil's potential threats are and you'll see how silly this is. Brazil's naval doctrine is based on sea denial thru littoral suppression. She cannot and does not want to conduct blue water operations. If push comes to shove and she is at odds with a naval power like .... I can't even think of one realistically, say another 2nd tier navy then she will call on her big brother to the north, end of problem. All Brazil cares about is anti-submarine warfare with some limited strike capability which Sao Paulo is a shining example of. While it might be nice to have some AAW it's out of their budget. Looking at potential threats to Brazilian commerce, it's most likely going to be enemy subs and she has good ASW assests... very good.
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Old September 1st, 2006   #20
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Why is everyone trying to make Brazil into a second tier naval power? The only major nation in their sphere of influence is the US and it would be foolish to even bother expanding to anything near our capabilities. Look at what Brazil's potential threats are and you'll see how silly this is. Brazil's naval doctrine is based on sea denial thru littoral suppression. She cannot and does not want to conduct blue water operations. If push comes to shove and she is at odds with a naval power like .... I can't even think of one realistically, say another 2nd tier navy then she will call on her big brother to the north, end of problem. All Brazil cares about is anti-submarine warfare with some limited strike capability which Sao Paulo is a shining example of. While it might be nice to have some AAW it's out of their budget. Looking at potential threats to Brazilian commerce, it's most likely going to be enemy subs and she has good ASW assests... very good.
Agree, but keeping a ship the size of the Foch/Sao Paulo in service just to fly around obsolete A4s is a bit of a shame. You also need several assets to protect it in case of overseas deployment. That's why when the French Super Etendards will start becoming available for rock-bottom prices in the next 5-10 years, it will be a good idea to buy them immediately.

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Old September 1st, 2006   #21
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Brazil's naval doctrine is based on sea denial thru littoral suppression. She cannot and does not want to conduct blue water operations. If push comes to shove and she is at odds with a naval power like .... I can't even think of one realistically, say another 2nd tier navy then she will call on her big brother to the north, end of problem. All Brazil cares about is anti-submarine warfare with some limited strike capability which Sao Paulo is a shining example of. While it might be nice to have some AAW it's out of their budget. Looking at potential threats to Brazilian commerce, it's most likely going to be enemy subs and she has good ASW assests... very good.
Also needs to protect her offshore oil rigs, which while are of great importance to Brazils economy.
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Old September 1st, 2006   #22
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hey guys i have a couple of questions here:

1)how does the brazilian tupi class compare to the scorpenes and the other submarines in the world?

2)what is the range,operational depth,maximum depth,weapon loads etc of the tupi class of submarines?

3)i would like to know if brazil has any indigenous anti shipping missile project(i remember reading about a so called project barracuda)?
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Old September 1st, 2006   #23
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hey guys i have a couple of questions here:

1)how does the brazilian tupi class compare to the scorpenes and the other submarines in the world?

2)what is the range,operational depth,maximum depth,weapon loads etc of the tupi class of submarines?

3)i would like to know if brazil has any indigenous anti shipping missile project(i remember reading about a so called project barracuda)?
The Tupis lack AIP to start with, while Scorpene have them.
Weapons are limited to 16 heavy torpedoes, no missiles (despite the fact that the Brazilian navy has both MM40 and AM39, there are no SM39), while Scorpenes are fitted for anti-ship missiles (up to the customer to decide whether to fit them or not of course).
Max depth is the standard 300metres (operational depth, because crushing depth is rather 500-600 metres though nobody'll test it unless he's sinking )
Range : 8200 miles at 8knots on the surface.

If you are interested visit the Brazilian Navy official site. It's not in English, but google translation may help you.

Brazil has no active national programme to replace the MM40 Exocets. Priorities are definitively elsewhere !

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Old September 1st, 2006   #24
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Originally Posted by contedicavour
Agree, but keeping a ship the size of the Foch/Sao Paulo in service just to fly around obsolete A4s is a bit of a shame. You also need several assets to protect it in case of overseas deployment. That's why when the French Super Etendards will start becoming available for rock-bottom prices in the next 5-10 years, it will be a good idea to buy them immediately.

cheers

Hi
I got question about Brazilian A-4s; did they receive modernization similar to Argentinean A-4s (AN/APG-66 radar)? If they are similar to Argentinean examples SE purchase wouldn’t make to much sense…
Also IIRC US offered French navy F-18 purchase as interim solution until Rafale M becomes available; IMHO ex. USN F-18 A/B would be better choice for A-4 replacement then Super Etendars ( if they can operate from Foch)…
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Old September 1st, 2006   #25
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Hi
I got question about Brazilian A-4s; did they receive modernization similar to Argentinean A-4s (AN/APG-66 radar)? If they are similar to Argentinean examples SE purchase wouldn’t make to much sense…
Also IIRC US offered French navy F-18 purchase as interim solution until Rafale M becomes available; IMHO ex. USN F-18 A/B would be better choice for A-4 replacement then Super Etendars ( if they can operate from Foch)…
Hornets cost still a lot more than Super Etendards... France will give them for free in a few years' time (in exchange for a contract allowing Dassault to update their electronics and fuselage a bit), while F18s still have a significant residual value and the F35s aren't coming until 2012 approx.
Although yes the F18s could in theory operate from the Foch, though the catapults need reinforcements and some adaptations would be needed to the lifts as well.
The A4s are ex Kuwaiti close air support fighterbombers, so they don't have a multi-function radar and thus cannot support any BVR AAMs.
Super Etendards would be better in anti-shipping roles with AM39 missiles (already in Brazilian inventory) and are equipped with Paveway guided bombs and can even launch cruise missiles !! Though yes the SEs cannot act as air superiority fighters since no BVR missiles (F18A/Bs could do that).

Bottomline, the Brazilian budget is very low and can't afford anything more than the almost-for-free Super Etendards

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Old September 1st, 2006   #26
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ya the super entendard is a very good plane for the price. brazil should buy more AM39 missles with the super entendards.
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Old September 2nd, 2006   #27
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Originally Posted by contedicavour
Agree, but keeping a ship the size of the Foch/Sao Paulo in service just to fly around obsolete A4s is a bit of a shame. You also need several assets to protect it in case of overseas deployment. That's why when the French Super Etendards will start becoming available for rock-bottom prices in the next 5-10 years, it will be a good idea to buy them immediately.

cheers
Are you forgetting how much they paid for that rust bucket? My SuperHornet is worth more than that ship and her entire airwing. Her escorts are worth more than she is. Considering her cost I think having a wing of A-4s and some S-2s for under $100 million requires 0 protection that isn't on the ship already. If the A-4s can carry exocet then they don't need Super-Etendards... if they're going to spend that much money they might as well get Rafales. The only reason Brazil has a carrier is for prestige, they never planned to really use it.
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Old September 2nd, 2006   #28
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Does Big-E means the USS Enterprise Task Force, the USN 7th Fleet ??
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Old September 2nd, 2006   #29
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1)how does the brazilian tupi class compare to the scorpenes and the other submarines in the world?
I find that in general terms the submarine scorpene(Chile) this it more evolved and with a design more modern to the Tupi class(Brazil).
- displacement in immersion
1590 tns - Tupi
1790 tns - scorpene
-weapons
6 TLT + 12 torpedos/misiles recharge SSM (blackshark - subexocet SM-39) - scorpene; total 18 weapons
8 TLT + 8 recharge torpedos (mk-24 Tigerfish)- Tupi; total 16 weapons
- power of the generators - diesel
4 x 420 kw = 1680 kw - Tupi
4x 632 kw = 2528 kw - scorpene
- power of the electric motor of propulsion
4600 HP - Tupi with a speed max of 21,5 knots
3800 HP-scorpene with a speed max of + 20 knots
- autonomy in immersion with electric propulsion to low speed
400 marine miles to 4 knots of Tupi
536 marine miles to 4 knots - scorpene
- autonomy in cruise with snorkel
8200 marine miles to 8 knots of speed in surface - Tupi
6500 marine miles to 8 knots of speed in surface - scorpene
-diving deep
250-300 mts - Tupi
350 mts - scorpene
- complement
36 - Tupi
32 - scorpene
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Old September 2nd, 2006   #30
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Does Big-E means the USS Enterprise Task Force, the USN 7th Fleet ??
What gave it away? Is the avatar not obvious enough along with my sig?

BTW Enterprise is no longer in PACFLT, she's ported in Norfolk.
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