Author Research - Exercises

EDDarnell

New Member
Hi all,

I'm currently writing a story and am looking for information to provide a greater level of detail to one of the key conflict elements early on.

In essence, I would like to write the scenario that following a successful multinational naval exercise, a British Destroyer is sunk by an American Cruiser.

The way I see this panning out is that following several joint exercises, the US Vessel initiates a surprise, unprovoked attack against the unsuspecting British ship.

Motive is unimportant at this stage, however the key areas that I keep sticking on involve details like, 'How quickly can safety rounds (that may or may not have been used on exercise?) be replaced with live rounds?', 'Can this be done by an individual, with minimal effort?' and 'How many people would need to be involved in initiating a strike of sufficient ferocity to sink a Destroyer?'

The idea being that a number of crew members are 'sleepers' who manage to orchestrate this event in order to create tension between the UK & the US.

On the flip side, the questions from the target vessel would be 'At what time would the ship/crew be most vulnerable/less quick to react?' and 'Would the Phalanx CIWS simply start spinning up as soon as inbound threats are detected or would there be a 'safety' switch to go to full auto mode?'

Finally, what kind of ranges, firepower would be required to ensure total destruction? Would sea-skimmers (Harpoons?) be sufficient or would a multi-pronged assault provide a better bet?

Regardless of answers received, thank you for the time taken to read what must seem like my inane questions!
 

Anixtu

New Member
'How quickly can safety rounds (that may or may not have been used on exercise?) be replaced with live rounds?'
The weapon of choice for this scenario has to be Harpoon. Gunfire would involve too many people. Harpoon launchers are almost permanently loaded with live rounds, though US units at times have sported empty launchers.

'How many people would need to be involved in initiating a strike of sufficient ferocity to sink a Destroyer?'
I am not familiar with the details of Harpoon, but at a guess it may be possible with one man. He would need unsupervised access to the Harpoon control console in CIC, including any keys and the keys for any other safety interlocks, and perhaps access to other parts of the system and possibly the launchers, depending on how missiles are made ready and armed. Bear in mind that CIC is probably permanently manned at sea with a fair number of watchkeepers. Your sleeper will also need access to targeting data, but he's in CIC so that's not a problem.

'At what time would the ship/crew be most vulnerable/less quick to react?'
At any time when they consider an attack unlikely. What is the geographic location of the exercise? Is it a Joint Warrior in safe northwest European waters, or is it taking place in the Persian Gulf within range of known potentially hostile ASMs?

'Would the Phalanx CIWS simply start spinning up as soon as inbound threats are detected or would there be a 'safety' switch to go to full auto mode?'
There are several levels to Phalanx readiness. All ships do not simply sail around with CIWS loaded and radiating on fully automatic, for various practical and safety reasons. Is it loaded with ammunition? Why? Is it radiating? Why? Readiness reflects perceived threat.

Look at the case of the Israeli vessel hit by an ASM off Lebanon. Phalanx was certainly loaded, possibly radiating, but they failed to respond to the threat and did not activate a firing mode.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
You might want to look at a real life friendly fire incident that involved a Turkish ship being rendered a constructive loss after a US warship engaged her.

More detail here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_(DM_357)

My point being, it would possibly be easier for a smaller number of conspirators to misdirect efforts of a larger ships company.
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
You might want to look at a real life friendly fire incident that involved a Turkish ship being rendered a constructive loss after a US warship engaged her.

More detail here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_(DM_357)

My point being, it would possibly be easier for a smaller number of conspirators to misdirect efforts of a larger ships company.
Some how your link got screwed up, seems like the posting system won't include the parenthesis at the end
http://goo.gl/vswfvo
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You might want to look at a real life friendly fire incident that involved a Turkish ship being rendered a constructive loss after a US warship engaged her.

More detail here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_(DM_357)

My point being, it would possibly be easier for a smaller number of conspirators to misdirect efforts of a larger ships company.
The JAGMAN for that incident can be found here.

As far as the original question:

How quickly can safety rounds (that may or may not have been used on exercise?) be replaced with live rounds?'
There are no such thing as RGM-84 "safety rounds". There are live missiles in the canister, or empty slots on your Mk 141 (which you probably have anyway). To change out missiles requires being in port and a couple days.

Can this be done by an individual, with minimal effort?

How many people would need to be involved in initiating a strike of sufficient ferocity to sink a Destroyer?
No, it can't be done by an individual. It would take at least 4 off the top of my head, including the CO. That's probably a low number.

Finally, what kind of ranges, firepower would be required to ensure total destruction? Would sea-skimmers (Harpoons?) be sufficient or would a multi-pronged assault provide a better bet?
I'll summarize it like this: the only way a TICO CG is going to sink a British DD (either T42 or T45) is by ramming it at full speed amidships and cutting it in half. No amount of Harpoons or 5in would do the trick. And I'm really, really, really not sure our CGs survive the collision anymore.

I think you need to find a new major plot point for your story.
 

Anixtu

New Member
No, it can't be done by an individual. It would take at least 4 off the top of my head, including the CO. That's probably a low number.
I've now done a little research. I take it your numbers are based on who controls the necessary keys? In the other direction it is possible that on an RN unit all the keys would be under the control of the PWO (at least doctrinally, it may be that COs prefer to hold them themselves).

I can think of a few ways to gain control of the keys, regardless of who holds them. It's not an insurmountable barrier.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
There isn't going to be 4 launch keys. SLBMs only have two.

There's a chain of people who are kept in the loop WRT AShM launches especially in an exercise sense where there are actually zero truly hostile threats and potentially dozens of allied ships milling around.

I'd take Blackshoe's advice about needing a new plot idea.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
At shorter ranges, ESSM or SM2? Both would make a hefty dent if salvoed. That'd be a "straight from the console" jobby.

Getting away with it could be trickier.

"Sir, I TOTALLY did not fire that salvo"
"Liar.Brig.."
 

Anixtu

New Member
There isn't going to be 4 launch keys. SLBMs only have two.
Assuming you are correct about SLBMs, two keys under the control of different officers may be required for final firing authorisation. But what about mode selectors (between training and firing modes, for example) further down the chain? Or for switching between local and remote control panels? These could be keyswitches too.

At shorter ranges, ESSM or SM2? Both would make a hefty dent if salvoed. That'd be a "straight from the console" jobby.
I haven't researched either of those systems, or equivalents, but it's likely that they have a similar level of control to Harpoon: various keyswitches at different levels of the system. Harpoon is fired from a console in the Ops Room not radically different to those for SAMs or guns.
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I've now done a little research. I take it your numbers are based on who controls the necessary keys? In the other direction it is possible that on an RN unit all the keys would be under the control of the PWO (at least doctrinally, it may be that COs prefer to hold them themselves).

I can think of a few ways to gain control of the keys, regardless of who holds them. It's not an insurmountable barrier.
Without going into too much detail...the people you'd need to disable both the mechanical and electrical interfaces, and get firing approval. I could believe that doctrinally, a PWO would have more authority on this than a USN TAO.

The system is designed to not fire unless you really mean to. And it works pretty well at that (sometimes too well).
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Okay - how about firing one as part of some other activity (Sinkex etc) and feeding it wrong info? So, it's launched when expected and as part of some legitimate activity, but then makes a sharp turn left when over the horizon and goes after something else ? Less people in the conspiracy ?
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Okay - how about firing one as part of some other activity (Sinkex etc) and feeding it wrong info? So, it's launched when expected and as part of some legitimate activity, but then makes a sharp turn left when over the horizon and goes after something else ? Less people in the conspiracy ?
SINKEXes usually have pretty wide range clearance requirements for exactly that reason-Harpoon is still a fire-and-forget weapon, so you keep everything out of the area where it might end up. And they are too well scripted for someone to be able to freelance like that.

Edited to add: using Harpoon, or anything else on a USN CG, I'm not seeing a way you can kill-not just hit, but kill-a DD-sized ship-even completely unaware-without a large number of people trying to stop it, or a large number of people being aware of it. And again, I'm still not even sure it's really possible before lots of other ships are alerted.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is the trick - hit, yes, it's been done, damage, yes. Sink..they build them tough and I bet a lot of the soft kill stuff is ready to hand at most times.

I'm not seeing it but it's worth tossing any ideas out there for examination.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The other thing is, the UK and US are pretty firm allies - Israel strafed and bombed a CIA spy ship, not much come back, the US totals a Turkish destroyer, profuse apologies all around..the US shot down way more Tornadoes than the Iraqi IADS managed in 2003, same deal.

I think it'd be a "Look, we're *really* sorry, we've had everyone involved sent to Leavenworth for *EVER* and can we buy you a nice new ship please?"
 

EDDarnell

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
Thanks everyone for their input - all information is greatly received!

So, overcoming the issue of destroying a ship... What weaponry would be sufficient? Would Harpoons be used as one facet of a multi-angle attack approach? Would torpedoes be able to assist? Or would there be anything else that would pack a heavier punch that could do the job?

On the other hand - say the culprit(s) is/are not caught. How much damage would a salvo of Harpoons accomplish and as they are 'Fire/Forget' weapons, where are they most liekly to impact - are they drawn to anything in particular?

Finally, is there a minimum range that they can be used successfully and what is the minimum range between vessels to avoid overt suspicion?
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks everyone for their input - all information is greatly received!

So, overcoming the issue of destroying a ship... What weaponry would be sufficient? Would Harpoons be used as one facet of a multi-angle attack approach? Would torpedoes be able to assist? Or would there be anything else that would pack a heavier punch that could do the job?

On the other hand - say the culprit(s) is/are not caught. How much damage would a salvo of Harpoons accomplish and as they are 'Fire/Forget' weapons, where are they most liekly to impact - are they drawn to anything in particular?

Finally, is there a minimum range that they can be used successfully and what is the minimum range between vessels to avoid overt suspicion?
Honestly, you're not likely to get a bigger "quick punch" than a full salvo of 8 Harpoons. The good thing about them for your story is its relatively easy for a small sleeper cell to get the shots off...they're relatively unsophisticated to fire. Even though it's quite hard to actually kill a ship as in "sink" it, 8 500lb warheads is going to cause some major damage, kill a lot of people, and IMO start some major fires.

Sustained 5" gun fire may be more effective in the long term, but it'd be a pretty long "long term." TLAMs have bigger warheads, but aren't really something a ship's crewmember could reasonably finagle around to chasing ships.

The problem is deniability. As soon as those missiles start leaving the launcher, people are going to start looking around. Someone is going to have the presence of mind to look over at the firing panel to figure out who's shooting off those rounds. So...you need to be OK with the perpetrators getting caught.

For impact, it'd be reasonable to write the shooters set up for impacts from multiple directions (ie all around the ship) to spread out the damage. There is a minimum range. Not sure what you mean by avoid suspicion. If you want to hide who actually shot it from the target ship, just somewhere over the horizon (say ~25+nm) or so would be safe. But the CG isn't exactly normally trying to hide either.
 

Anixtu

New Member
So, overcoming the issue of destroying a ship... What weaponry would be sufficient? Would Harpoons be used as one facet of a multi-angle attack approach? Would torpedoes be able to assist? Or would there be anything else that would pack a heavier punch that could do the job?
The damage from even a couple of Harpoon against an unalerted destroyer is going to be severe, four will be enough to lead in fairly short order to abandonment. Look at the effects of Argentinian strikes against units that were expecting to be attacked. Sinking is unnecessary, destruction to the point of abandoning ship should be sufficient to make your point.

are they drawn to anything in particular?
Probably centre mass of the target radar return.

Finally, is there a minimum range that they can be used successfully and what is the minimum range between vessels to avoid overt suspicion?
Minimum range for Harpoon probably on the order of a few miles.

Maritime convention is to pass other vessels at a minimum of one nautical mile in open waters.

Various good points have been raised about the wider context. Your agent will be caught immediately after carrying out the firing actions. The US unit will immediately offer assistance to the damaged UK unit. I don't see how this can plausibly create the diplomatic fallout you are looking for, unless the ground has been prepared by other events, and in that case the context and perhaps outcome of this attack must differ too.
 
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