Amphibious ship take off and landing

[gaisgeach]

Is it possible for a fixed wing aircraft with stol capability to take off and land on the deck of a LHD like the wasp class or the new LHA America? Is the vertical landing absolutely needed?

 

[citizen578]

The RN developed a rolling landing system for the harrier (mainly to improve weapons bring-back capability) so there's no reason similar systems couldn't be used for other aircraft with silar STOL landing characteristics. But what aircraft did you have in mind? There's not much that can match the harrier in STOL, whilst still giving the same operational/offesnsive capabilities.

 

[t68]

Although i cannot find take off requirements for the BAE Hawk 200 aircraft being small and nimble a cannot see a problem taking off from the new Queen Elizabeth class carrier now being built for the RN,possably make a hybrid design between Hawk 200 and T-45 Goshawk.

T-45A/C Goshawk Trainer Aircraft - Air Force Technology
Hawk Trainer / Light Combat Aircraft - Air Force Technology

Not sure how it would go on the smaller area of a WASP without some assistance

 

[gaisgeach]

thank you for the answers.

I have in mind a light turboprop like the super tucano or something similar to the OV-10 bronco. If fitted with boundary layer control maybe it can take off but will it be able to land without the arresting wires?

 

[Marc 1]

thank you for the answers.

I have in mind a light turboprop like the super tucano or something similar to the OV-10 bronco. If fitted with boundary layer control maybe it can take off but will it be able to land without the arresting wires?

Entirely possible - if they can land a Herc on a CV without using arrestor wires then something smaller and more STOL could land on an LHD I suppose.

A Super Tucano doesn't strike me as having any STOL characteristics - why that aircraft? The Hawk I'd also doubt would even be able to take off let alone land. When I'm talking STOL aircraft I'm thinking small and propellor driven. Generally STOL designs tend to be slow flying by design - OK for transports - not much chop for anything else.

The question is why?

 

[gaisgeach]

Actually I asked it beacuse I'm attending an aircraft design course at university; the goal is to design an escort for the MV-22 so I was thinking about a turboprop light attack aircraft able to take off and land on a LHD wasp class ship.

 

[winnyfield]

The Wasp class LHD is as big the aircraft carriers of WW2. It's doable, but I imagine light props (eg Cessnas) are going to get thrown around by the elements upon landing.

Launch and recovery of WW2
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti-l4pZcFKw"]YouTube- WW2 Carrier War in the Pacific - Raid on Truk[/nomedia]

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Actually I asked it beacuse I'm attending an aircraft design course at university; the goal is to design an escort for the MV-22 so I was thinking about a turboprop light attack aircraft able to take off and land on a LHD wasp class ship.

Hmm...Well, if that's your objective, I'd suggest not going the fixed wing route. In my mind, using CTOL aircraft add some fairly significant restrictions and drawbacks.

Firstly, the length of the takeoff and landing rolls dictates and reduces the amount of deck you have available for other missions, aircraft, equipment, etc. This reduction in available deck space limits the number of helicopter/Ospreys you can launch, load, and recover at one time, which has obvious drawbacks.

Secondly, safety reasons may dictate that the deck must be completely cleared during Tucano operations. For example, let's say a Super Tucano pilot overshoots the deck and has to go around again. But if the forward part of the flight deck is being used for V-22s or heloes while you're doing recoveries, then the possibility of a very, very serious accident arises.

There was some discussion about this on the RAN thread a while back, if I recall correctly, so I'd recommend looking back at it. The discussion on it starts here about midway down the page and continues intermittently until page 220 (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/royal-australian-navy-discussions-updates-5905-215/)

If a VTOL Osprey escort is you goal, I'd suggest simply modifying an existing tiltrotor design. It would have the speed to keep up with the V-22s, but its warload, range, etc. would exceed that of a helicopter. The idea isn't a new one, but it's worth revisiting. (V-22 Escort).

Or you could go with a VTOL/STOVL jet design such as the Harrier, Yak-38, Yak-141 (Russian prototype of a VTOL jet), or the F-35B. This, is my mind, is the best option, since it also gives your force a degree of limited tactical air defence and interdiction capability.

 

[Marc 1]

The Wasp class LHD is as big the aircraft carriers of WW2. It's doable, but I imagine light props (eg Cessnas) are going to get thrown around by the elements upon landing.

Launch and recovery of WW2
YouTube- WW2 Carrier War in the Pacific - Raid on Truk

True, and a modern turboprop may have the power to take off unassisted with a light load, but WWII carriers used arestor gear - LHD's lack that type of ewquipment and a Super Tucano would need to use arestor gear. That would necessitate either fitting the LHD's with an angled deck in case of a 'bolter' or the erection of a barrier to ensure a bolter doesn't take out aircraft at the front of the flight deck. That would lead to an unacceptable loss rate (pilots and machines).

In short without a radically new design, existing light turboprops are not suted to the role, nor are the LHD's.

Any carrier aircraft would need to be designed with reinforced airframe, high sink rate gear, a beefed up arestor hook etc. These things will add significant weight. As it is (I'm guessing here) the aircraft would be weight restricted trying to take off without a catapault, so there would be little point in going down this route anyway. If you add a catapault as well as arrestor gear, things are beginning to get ridiculous. Additional manpower, space, cost, training etc - and an impaired ability to launch the V22 and Ch53's that is the main reason for the ship in the first place.

Nup, bad idea. Better to let the LHD's do what they do best, and leave the fixed wing operations to the CV that would most probably accompany any amphibious assault anyway. If you want another escort (apart from the Supercobras), I'd go with what Kilo 2-3 has advised.

 

[gaisgeach]

Thanks for your suggestions.

If I'd go with a STOVL jet, wouldn't it need a cleared deck during the take off? And once in flight, should it have a loiter phase around the ship till the V22s are taken out of the hangar, loaded and launched? Or could they launch first the osprey and then the escort vehicle?

 

[Bonza]

Have you checked out the Piasecki Speedhawk and technology along those lines? I'm not sure how relevant it is but the technology is certainly interesting, and if you're designing an armed escort for a tilt-wing aircraft perhaps it would be applicable:

Piasecki X-49A SpeedHawk

Sikorsky Piasecki X-49 “Speedhawk” - First Flight in June at Flightstory.net - Aviation Blog

Here's another platform with a similar setup, along with a little piece of concept art for several versions, including armed and unmanned:

Sikorsky's X2 Technology Doubles Chopper Speed | Fast Company

X2 Technology

http://aviationweek.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/01/sikorsky_x2.png

Hope the links help.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Thanks for your suggestions.

If I'd go with a STOVL jet, wouldn't it need a cleared deck during the take off? And once in flight, should it have a loiter phase around the ship till the V22s are taken out of the hangar, loaded and launched? Or could they launch first the osprey and then the escort vehicle?

Not necessarily. Ideally the VTOL or STOVL design you go with shouldn't have too long a takeoff run, leaving deck space available at the stern.

However, I'd recommend launching the Ospreys first to clear the decks (it would be more time-effective to have them on deck, ready to go since it takes time to load them, unfold them, warm them up, etc), then launch your fighters. The top speed of the Ospreys is only about 315 mph, and obviously jets like the F-35B are far faster so catching up should be an issue.

Or, if you were operating in a hostile environment, launch a Combat Air Patrol first, allow it to orbit to provide air defence for the task force. Then launch your Ospreys and as their getting into formation and preparing to hit the beach, launch your escorts. This type of mission layout would hopefully reduce the time in which your Osprey package was unescorted.

However, I'm not an aviation or amphibious warfare expert and I encourage you to take my opinions only as a starting point, not as a literal, wholly accurate set of facts.

 

[Marc 1]

Additional Info: The USMC used to operate the OV10 bronco's off the Tarawa class, takeoffs were routinely made but landings, whilst done occasionally, were considered too risky to be done regularly. So a decently equipped STOL design such as the OV10 (and probaly the OV10x being developed by Boeing could take off from the flat tops but the interruption to rotary ops still remains as a problem as does where and how you land the airframe.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Additional Info: The USMC used to operate the OV10 bronco's off the Tarawa class, takeoffs were routinely made but landings, whilst done occasionally, were considered too risky to be done regularly. So a decently equipped STOL design such as the OV10 (and probaly the OV10x being developed by Boeing could take off from the flat tops but the interruption to rotary ops still remains as a problem as does where and how you land the airframe.

Shuttle bombing between the carrier and a forward airfield airfield might be an option. The issues of recovery and interrupted rotary wing tempo would still be an issue, but it would reduce it somewhat. Probably not ideal, but it might be a useful method of operation in some circumstances.

Or the carrier/LHD could carry the OV-10s/CTOL aircraft, launch them to land on a forward airfield and then act as an assault carrier for the rest of the mission,if need recovering the OV-10s once their presence is no longer needed. Something broadly similar what the Royal Navy's carriers and USS Wasp did during their plane ferry mission to Malta (not a perfect analogy, I know, but they do illustrate gist of my idea).

On a side note, here's a picture of USS Nassau (LHA-4) launching a Bronco (the OV-10 is visible at the stern, decked out in a snazzy orange-and-green color scheme. (http://www.fas.org/man//dod-101/sys/ship/LHA4.JPG)

 

[Marc 1]

Interesting to note in the pic that the deck has to be completely cleared for the takoff roll - that's not a minor inconvenience to rotary wing operations.

 

[gaisgeach]

Searching the internet, I found that the new America class LHA will have 12 Ospreys; how many will probably take off in the first assault lift (I suppose 6, since this appears to be the number of the landing spots on the deck)?
And how many aircrafts should escort the tiltrotors formation?

 

[Belesari]

Searching the internet, I found that the new America class LHA will have 12 Ospreys; how many will probably take off in the first assault lift (I suppose 6, since this appears to be the number of the landing spots on the deck)?
And how many aircrafts should escort the tiltrotors formation?

I remeber seeing alot of stuff about a new rotor design that gives existing helicopters alot more speed. So they might try that.

 

[Marc 1]

Searching the internet, I found that the new America class LHA will have 12 Ospreys; how many will probably take off in the first assault lift (I suppose 6, since this appears to be the number of the landing spots on the deck)?
And how many aircrafts should escort the tiltrotors formation?

How long is a piece of string? What opposition are they facing, what other aircraft are available, what other assets can substitute?

 

[Wooki]

escort

Actually I asked it beacuse I'm attending an aircraft design course at university; the goal is to design an escort for the MV-22 so I was thinking about a turboprop light attack aircraft able to take off and land on a LHD wasp class ship.

As an academic exercise I would suggest an autogyro, as it can operate well in the same ship/aircraft interface as a rotary aircraft.

e.g. Three Jet Performance Spreadsheet on CarterAviationTechnologies.com

You can give these guys a call and they will help you out with your project and maybe give you a few sim hours.

cheers

w

 

[Kilo 2-3]

As an academic exercise I would suggest an autogyro, as it can operate well in the same ship/aircraft interface as a rotary aircraft.

e.g. Three Jet Performance Spreadsheet on CarterAviationTechnologies.com

You can give these guys a call and they will help you out with your project and maybe give you a few sim hours.

Still, wouldn't an autogyro require a takeoff and landing roll of some sort?

Granted, it will be far sorter than that of a comparable fixed-wing aircraft, but on the cramped flight deck of an LHA/LHD, this could still be a constraint.

Plus, once you get the autogyro up to full combat loads (gas, cargo, and fully-armed troops, plus any additional mission equipment (door guns, etc.), the takeoff roll could be even longer.

Also, would an autogryo be able to sling-carry loads? I'm not an expert on air assault, but it seems to me like an aircraft that cannot truly hover might have some difficulty in picking up and dropping sling-carried loads.

Perhaps a compromise might be achievable? Something like the Fairey Rotodyne?

One a related note: (Marines Plan Pick for Cargo UAS Demo)

:type